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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: August 9th, 2016, 10:41 pm 
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Mike,
No order yet. Ran out of time, school starts next week. Probably won't get to it know until spring.


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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: August 10th, 2016, 3:14 pm 
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Fritz wrote:
No order yet. Ran out of time, school starts next week. Probably won't get to it know until spring.


Fritz, all of that stuff (G/flex, peel ply or Dynel) will keep. And I’ll bet you a beer between now and next spring you’ll find repair uses for G/flex.

If you opt to go full on Dynel, G/flex and peel ply I’ll offer my installation method. I don’t grind down to the ABS layer, or do much sanding beyond a light gloss removing 220. The G/flex prep chart shows “Alcohol wipe and flame treat” as recommended prep, and a smoother hull edge at the perimeter of the cloth may be beneficial to keep the critical cloth edges from lifting over time with water and dirt infiltration.

Clean the stems with alcohol. Ehhh, I wash the whole boat first, mostly because I don’t like working on a dirty hull and possibly transferring contaminates onto the hull area in question, and also because detail washing is a good way to get up close and personal with a boat, and often find other areas in need of attention.

Alcohol wipe the stems (and beyond) where the skid plate will be installed.

Design the length, width and shape of the Dynel skid plates.

Cut that Dynel shape. It helps to make a paper template and transfer that to the Dynel.

Dynel cuts very cleanly, but my scissor work remains at a grade school can’t-color-inside-the-lines level, so I use a razor blade for much of that, especially any straight line cuts I can make against a yard stick.

You can opt to cut Dynel on the bias and it will better conform to complex curves, but that wastes a lot of Dynel fabric scrap. I’m cheap, and release treated peel ply flattens the unbiased edge wrinkles, so I cut the Dynel in the most fabric economical way.

While you have that cut Dynel out lay it atop the peel ply and trace/cut that about 1 inch larger all around. All of the fabric materials are now ready.

Lay that Dynel shape on the stem and tape out the perimeter about ¼ inch away all the way around. I use blue painter’s tape for a clean edge.

I admittedly spend an inordinate amount of time taping and “papering” a hull; I can be drippy sloppy and sometimes over generous with the resin. YMMV, but using peel ply helps evenly spread and level my over generous resin applications.

Once that perimeter tape is in place I use little pieces of Scotch tape to adhere sheets of newspaper half way up the blue perimeter tape, and then lap that edge with another perimeter of painters tape so the resin can’t drip down/through.

You’ll need to cut the newspaper at the stem into a curve. I just hold the paper up, roughly pencil mark a curve line on the newspaper edge and round that corner off. It doesn’t need to be precise since the second perimeter of tape will cover any slight scissor curved misshape.

Mix your pot of resin. I’ve been economizing with a 50/50 mix of West 105/206 and G/flex, but straight (warmed) G/flex would be better and require fewer materials purchased.

Flame treat that skid plate area with a brief pass of a propane torch. Yes, you can do this with the tape and newspaper in place. The tape will withstand a brief pass of blue flame tongue and it is best to do that flame treatment immediately before resin application.

I don’t mind the look of opaque black skid plates, so I add graphite powder and a dab of black resin, but you can skip that more-materials-needed part.

Press the tape down one more time with your thumb all the way around, just to be sure it is all still well adhered on the hull edge.

Paint on a coat of resin inside the taped skid plate area.

Lay the Dynel atop that as carefully and smoothly as possible and top coat it with more resin. Dab at the edges until you realize you are doing more harm than good.

Walk away.

Watch the excess epoxy drip down the newspapered edges. When those drips seem to have stopped remove the outer tape layer and newspaper. If you thought ahead and left little fold-over tabs on the tape this will be easy.

Walk away, but not far. Are the epoxy drips still creeping down the perimeter tape? Egads, don’t let them drip onto the unpapered hull. You can fold up the bottom edge of the tape or hit the drips with the brush. You didn’t toss that brush in the trashcan already did you?

When you judge those drips on the primary tape layer to have stopped creeping, pull that remaining layer of tape. You left little pull tabs on that tape as well, didn’t you?

I take the tape off before the peel ply goes on, because I don’t want to risk epoxying the painters tape to the hull. There may be a trick to that I don’t yet know.

Lay the release treated peel ply over the Dynel and resin. Carefully and smoothly, leaving the 1 inch overlap all the way around. Press the peel ply into the Dynel (or selvage edged glass tape). I have a small hard plastic roller, but a DIY plastic squeegee (cut up coffee can lid), tongue depressor or even disposable gloved hand will work as well.

Walk away, but not too far. In half an hour or so come back to the hull and press the peel ply down again, especially any (easily visible under the peel ply) raised areas or bubble voids.

Walk away again. Go upstairs to the shower and read the instructions on the wife’s conditioner; Rinse and repeat. You can skip the rinse part, but go back and compress that peel ply again, especially the edges. Even the raised selvage edge of glass tape will disappear under repeated peel ply compression.

Walk away for the night. God bless release treated peel ply. The first time you remove peel ply from day old resin will be a fingers crossed and saying prayers moment. It needn’t be; the release treated peel ply will pull off like a Post-it note and the underlying result will be nothing short of “Oh my god why didn’t I use this before”.

That’s all well and peel ply good, but CRAP, your once clean painters tape lines are now smushily indistinct from you pushing the on the resined edges after you pulled the tape. No worries, most epoxy resins do not fare well in sun exposure over time without some UV inhibitor top coat, especially if you store your boats outside.

I use spray paint as a UV top coat. Cheap Rustoleum enamel or etc. Black on graphite & black pigment skid plates, or a nearly hull matching red/green/white or etc.

BTW, if you want the underlying fabric to match the hull you can add a drop of pigment to the epoxy resin mix. The pigmented resin will deeply saturate the cloth, and when you scrape and scratch the paint topcoat it won’t show through as badly.

Wait at least a few days for the epoxy to outgas. A week is better. Tape and paper the canoe as before. Further out onto the hull with the paper helps, the aerosolized overspray is insidiously invasive.

Spray paint the skid plates in your color choice. Pull the painters tape as soon as you are done spraying for a nice clean edge line. In a couple years, when you have binged some rocks and dragged the stems, tape it up and spray it again if aesthetically need be.

Yeah, that sounds laborious, but even with the prep time spent protectively taping and papering the hull it is only a couple or three hours spread over two days, and the Dynel/peel ply result is well worth the effort.


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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: August 15th, 2016, 2:40 pm 
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Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
Mike McCrea wrote:
I’ll bet you a beer between now and next spring you’ll find repair uses for G/flex.


Fritz, I busted the D handle on a short trenching shovel a few days ago. Fixed it with a bean sized dollop of G/flex and a couple of screws (I over repaired the handle to prevent future failures).

New trenching shovel, $20.
Dollop of G/flex, maybe $1

Oh hell yeah.


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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: August 15th, 2016, 4:55 pm 
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Mike,
I'm convinced. I'll place my order as soon as the beginning of the semester craziness ends! And thanks for the wonderful, complete set of instructions for how to use the gflex and the peel ply.
Fritz


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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: June 11th, 2017, 7:07 pm 
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Joined: June 21st, 2001, 7:00 pm
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio USA
Finally ordered Gflex, dynel fabric, and release fabric today. Time to fix the boats. Thanks for the great advice.


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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: June 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm 
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Location: Canmore, Alberta
Wow what a great thread. I've been wondering why the yellow kevlar skid plates suck so bad, and if there was a better way.


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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: June 22nd, 2017, 11:21 am 
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Fritz wrote:
Finally ordered Gflex, dynel fabric, and release fabric today. Time to fix the boats. Thanks for the great advice.


Fritz, please do tell how it all comes out.
It occurs to me that links to a single distributor of all the needed materials would be useful. This is all from a US company (Jamestown Distributors); perhaps someone can supply a Canadian source.

Skid Plate Materials
Enough yardage of (55” wide) Dynel cloth to cut the needed X inches of skid plate material. One yard should be enough to do two canoes bow and stern, or at least enough to have some leftovers if cut on the bias.

https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/u ... 252F+Cloth

Enough (60” wide) release treated peel ply to cut up and cover the Dynel with an inch wider all around, laid atop and lapped over the sides of the epoxied Dynel. Again, one yard should be plenty for a boat +.

https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/u ... her+Fabric

G/flex epoxy. Get the larger 16oz A & B bottles (32 oz kit) of G/flex. I didn’t check out if there were possible hazmat shipping charges, but I think I paid close to $100 for a 32oz kit at an outfitter, so Jamestown’s $60 for 32 oz seems like a deal.

https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/u ... o?pid=8694

If you have any West 105 resin and hardener you can mix the G/flex and 105/206 in any proportion to stretch the G/flex and economize. While straight G/flex would be better I’ve been using a 50/50 mix.

If you want graphite powder and black pigmented skid plates order a 1oz tube of black color agent. It only takes a tiny dab to tint a pot of epoxy, so one tube of pigment is enough to do 20 skid plates. Add the pigment first, then (little at a time) add a spoonful of graphite powder.

Or just a tube of color agent to match the hull color if you prefer. The pigmented epoxy has to go on in the initial and wet out coats so it soaks into the fabric.

https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/u ... ing+Agents

Graphite Powder. One small can of graphite powder is enough to do 20 skid plates.

https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/u ... o?pid=3763

Disposables needed - Chip brushes and/or small foam roller, sleeves and pan. Painters tape. Disposable gloves. Sandpaper. Isopropyl alcohol. Popsicle stir sticks and plastic mixing cups. Newspaper. Acetone in case you spill or drip is handy to have available.

Once the boat is taped and papered I lay out gloves and brushes and mixing pots. Plural, as in an extra of each, just in case I tear a glove, drop the brush on the floor or knock the pot over on the bench. And have the can of acetone and a rag handy. Ask me how I know that.


For better UV longevity a can of black (or etc color) Rustoleum gloss spray paint to tape, paper, spray (an outgassed and alcohol wiped week or two later) on the new Dynel/epoxy.


Last edited by Mike McCrea on June 23rd, 2017, 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: June 22nd, 2017, 4:10 pm 
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio USA
The materials arrived, now all I need is some time--maybe this weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: June 24th, 2017, 1:09 pm 
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Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
Fritz wrote:
The materials arrived, now all I need is some time--maybe this weekend.


This weekend, or even US better, next weekend.

I have a hard rule about some holiday weekends. On Memorial Day, 4th of July and Labor Day weekends I buy a case of beer (er, two) on the Thursday before and try to not cross my property lines again until the following Tuesday.

There are too many people out, trying to do things they are not very good at. I’ll have a visiting friend in the shop next weekend and we can plan to spend 3 days working on outfitting one of his boats, without hearing anyone say “Hold my beer and watch this!”

Before marriage and kids my favorite long weekend for outdoors exploration was Thanksgiving. Gimme a week, leaving the Monday or Tuesday before the Thanksgiving weekend and returning the Tuesday or Wednesday after; that was sublime in terms of all-to-myself outdoors.

I’m excited to hear how your Dynel and peel ply skid plates come out. The more and better prep work you do, the better the end result; the actually epoxy and material laying is the fastest and easiest part of that task.


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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: June 25th, 2017, 6:14 pm 
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Worked on cleaning up both boats today--the old Mohawk Royalex that needs new skid plates and my newer Mad River Explorer Kevlar that needs some ding and scratches filled in. Next step is to wash both down with bleach to remove mildew. I also have to put together a supplies list for brushes, rollers, colorant, spray paint, etc and get those tomorrow. I might have time this week for actual epoxy fun. If not, then next weekend.

I also have a rudder and spray skirt on order for my 1994 Folbot Yukon. Probably will have to modify at least the spray skirt because the dimension have changed -- fortunately to a bigger cockpit rather than a smaller.

Maybe I'll actually get on the water this summer.


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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: June 27th, 2017, 2:52 pm 
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Ok, I've cleaned up both boats and chipped away at the damaged stern keel line on my Royalex Mohawk (1982). I had previously, perhaps ten years ago, covered the damaged area where the outer layer of royalex was worn off, with a skidplate consisting of fiberglass tape and polyester resin that I had tinted green to match the color of the boat. I think this was the second time I'd done this. Cheap, easy, not very pretty, but worked well enough for a while.

To get to solid substrate, I used a sharp chisel to slice off badly worn parts of the skidplate and scraped out a crumbly reddish brown layer under that. I cut back the skidplate until I found the solid outer layer of royalex--the green skin of the boat with a white underside. This has gotten rid of the compromised portion of the old skid plate and the crumbly reddish brown layer and left a solid reddish brown plastic at the bottom of the removed section.

My plan is to make up a filler with gflex and filleting powder. I have two kinds, West 407 Low Density Fairing Filler that is relatively easy to shape after the epoxy hardens and West 406 Colliodal Silica Adhesive Filler, that is not so easy to shape. I'm inclined to use the harder one because this area of the canoe takes a beating.

My question is, am I about to make any mistakes that I'll regret? Thanks for any advice you all may have.


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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: June 27th, 2017, 3:04 pm 
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Questions about second canoe, Mad River Explorer 1989, Kevlar. The keel line is wearing and rocks have cut through in a couple of places exposing fabric underneath, nothing dire yet, but needs to be fixed. Also the usual set of scratches in the gelcoat across the bottom. I'd like to beef up the keel line to make it more resistant to wear, but I'm reluctant, mostly for aesthetic reasons, to put skid plates on it or alternatively to cover the keel line from bow to stern with fiberglass tape and gflex. Some of the deep scratches are about half way between the box and stern, so it takes a beating there also.

It seems like I might be able to build up the keel line with gflex and West 407 Fairing Filler or with gflex and West 406 Silica Adhesive Filler and I could use that to fill the minor scratches in the gelcoat as well. Or should I do skidplates or a bow to stern tape and gflex job?

Any thoughts on best practices for this? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: June 30th, 2017, 2:11 pm 
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Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
Fritz wrote:
My plan is to make up a filler with gflex and filleting powder. I have two kinds, West 407 Low Density Fairing Filler that is relatively easy to shape after the epoxy hardens and West 406 Colliodal Silica Adhesive Filler, that is not so easy to shape. I'm inclined to use the harder one because this area of the canoe takes a beating.

My question is, am I about to make any mistakes that I'll regret? Thanks for any advice you all may have.


I doubt you’ll have any material mistakes you’ll regret. I guess I’d use the “easier to shape” 407. The stems are a pretty stiff area on the hull on their own, and it may be more important to have a smooth, seamless surface on which to lay the Dynel and G/flex.

Fritz wrote:
Questions about second canoe, Mad River Explorer 1989, Kevlar. The keel line is wearing and rocks have cut through in a couple of places exposing fabric underneath, nothing dire yet, but needs to be fixed. Also the usual set of scratches in the gelcoat across the bottom. I'd like to beef up the keel line to make it more resistant to wear, but I'm reluctant, mostly for aesthetic reasons, to put skid plates on it or alternatively to cover the keel line from bow to stern with fiberglass tape and gflex. Some of the deep scratches are about half way between the box and stern, so it takes a beating there also.

It seems like I might be able to build up the keel line with gflex and West 407 Fairing Filler or with gflex and West 406 Silica Adhesive Filler and I could use that to fill the minor scratches in the gelcoat as well. Or should I do skidplates or a bow to stern tape and gflex job?

Any thoughts on best practices for this?


That is a much trickier question. I’d probably add Dynel skid plates, either concurrently while you are at it with the Mohawk, or perhaps better after, with what you learned the first time around.

I vacillate because it all seems about use and abuse.

Last fall we reinforced the bottom of a couple guide friend’s kevlar sea kayaks that see hard client use, think subsurface limestone, razor sharp oyster bars and folks abusing the hulls at wave trashed landings.

Those two boats had significant wear into the kevlar fabric, both at the stems and amidships under the seat. As an experiment we “repaired” them using G/flex and either E-glass, S-glass and Dynel, as single layers in different locations on different boats as an abrasion wear test.

I won’t get to see those hulls again until this fall, but I’m told that the E-glass and S-glass wore through in a single season’s abusive guide work, and the Dynel is still going strong.

The other side of that coin is a friend’s Kevlar Malecite poling boat. We put a full length E-glass tape “vee protector” and skid plate on that hull 10 years ago and it only now needs replacement.

That E-glass tape did its sacrificial job, but this time around we’ll lay down a thin vee strip of Dynel and peel ply and hope for 20 years.

About the aesthetic reasons; I think black graphite powder and black pigment look contrasting sharp, and a similarly black keel line strip is only visible when the canoe is on the roof racks.


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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: July 1st, 2017, 9:07 pm 
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Thanks Mike. Next steps tomorrow. Royalex skidplates first.


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 Post subject: Re: Skid Plate repair
PostPosted: July 3rd, 2017, 6:58 am 
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Fritz wrote:
Thanks Mike. Next steps tomorrow. Royalex skidplates first.


Tomorrow is today. Well, yesterday now. I had friend DougD in the shop dong some outfitting on his Kev Rob Roy.

We bias cut Dynel and release treated peel ply to fashion 2 small skid plates to protect the worn stems and original owner slop glass repairs. Graphite powder, black pigment, G/flex & West 105 mix.

That boat has sharp stems and Doug learned a new Dynel placement trick. Since we were using black pigment and graphite powder we drew a centerline down the Dynel in Sharpie. With that centerline positioned atop the sharp V stem the skid plate went on perfectly positioned. That centerline is especially helpful when working solo without another pair of eyes to help with positioning the cloth.

We added sprayskirt attachments to the Rob Roy, which were trickier than you might expect. The back “cowling” on the Bell Rob Roy is angled outwards /______. There is no way to attach a spray skirt rand to that idiotic angle.

That back cowling is part of the molded deck. The is no reason that back deck was not molded so it could grab a spray skirt rand. Methinks when the deck mold was made the mirror image business was overlooked. Molds are expensive; I guess that that, even with the bass-awkards rear cowling, Bell decided that would have to do.

The solution to keeping the spray skirt rand in place was installing three female snap rivets on the back of the long rec kayak skirt and three males on the stupid /_____ back deck rim.

The spray skirt now fits like a charm, and is actually easier to put on. Snap the back, hook the front , tuck the sides. The front of that long spray skirt isn’t popping off while trying to fit the back.

That is a nylon rec skirt with a large Velcro closure tunnel, so in a capsize the paddler would quickly pop out of the skirt.

BTW, a (early generation) Wilderness Pamlico P-145 skirt fits the Rob Roy cockpit and seat location perfectly.


Last edited by Mike McCrea on July 4th, 2017, 1:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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