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PostPosted: January 12th, 2019, 11:10 pm 
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Here is a link to the individual (Keith Sharp) who owned Ferguson Lodge. I believe Juanita and I were there the first/second year it was opened.

http://www.explorenunavut.com/rankininl ... dation.php


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PostPosted: January 13th, 2019, 12:43 am 
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Know of a couple groups that had some difficulties, but they were later.


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PostPosted: January 14th, 2019, 11:04 am 
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Thanks to David for what some may consider to be an excessively gentle response regarding my fox’s paw about Grinnell’s credibility.
I should have referred to the following, rather than to the broken-glass item.

Lanouette’s journal for the day of Moffatt’s death is provided in
http://www.myccr.com/phpbbforum/viewtop ... 81&t=46738
The leading passage regarding the dump that caused Moffatt’s death:
After a satisfying lunch, chowder and 3 ‘tacks apiece, we shoved off again around 2:30. The weather was still dismal, even though the wind had dropped almost completely. The river flowed on swiftly and within a few minutes we heard and saw another rapids on the horizon (Note: At this time, Art figured we had shot the last 2 rapids into Marjorie so this surprised us—actually, what we earlier thought were rapids were only riffles. What lay ahead was the real beginning of the first rapids). From the top, these rapids looked easy—a few small waves, rocks…nothing serious—we didn’t even haul over to look it over, as we usually did. The river was straight and we could see both the top and foot of the rapids quite clearly. What we didn’t realize, is that we couldn’t see the middle, even though we thought we could. We barreled happily along. We bounced over a couple of fair-sized waves and took in a couple of splashes but I didn’t mind, as I had made an apron of my poncho and remained dry enough. I was looking a few feet in front of the canoe for submerged rocks. Suddenly, Art shouted “Paddle”—
Opinion. The remainder of the journal is not relevant to the discussion. But the reader may wish to confirm this statement.

The Sports Illustrated condensation of the above.
After a fine lunch of fish chowder, we shoved off again at around 2:30. The weather was still dismal, although the wind had dropped. In a few minutes we heard and saw rapids on the horizon. This surprised us. Art had figured we had already shot the last two rapids before Marjorie Lake. Actually, what we had gone down were only riffles, and what lay ahead was the real beginning of the first rapids. At the top, the rapids looked as though they would be easy going, a few small waves, rocks—nothing serious. We didn’t even haul to shore to have a look, as we usually did. The river was straight and we could see both the top and foot of the rough water quite clearly, or we thought we could. We barreled happily along. We bounced over a couple of fair-sized waves and took in a couple of splashes, but I didn’t mind, as I had made an apron of my poncho and remained dry enough. I was looking a few feet in front of the canoe for submerged rocks when Art suddenly shouted “Paddle.” [Sports Illustrated, 16 March 1959, p 85].
Opinion. The condensation is a faithful one.

Grinnell’s version of the Sports Illustrated condensation.
After a fine lunch of fish chowder, we shoved off again at around 2:30. The weather was still dismal, although the wind had dropped. In a few minutes we heard and saw rapids on the horizon. …
At the top, the rapids looked as though they would be easy going, a few small waves, rocks—nothing serious. We didn’t even haul to shore to have a look, as we usually did. The river was straight and we could see both the top and foot of the rough water quite clearly, or we thought we could. We barreled happily along. We bounced over a couple of fair-sized waves and took in a couple of splashes, but I didn’t mind, as I had made an apron of my poncho and remained dry enough. I was looking a few feet in front of the canoe for submerged rocks when Art suddenly shouted “Paddle.”
[Grinnell book (1996), top of p 202]

Comparison reveals that Grinnell redacted the three-sentence passage
In a few minutes we heard and saw rapids on the horizon. This surprised us. Art had figured we had already shot the last two rapids before Marjorie Lake. Actually, what we had gone down were only riffles, and what lay ahead was the real beginning of the first rapids.
and replaced it by an ellipsis.
And so some might conclude that passage to be something special.

Interpretation of the redacted passage.
Lanouette and Moffatt were surprised because J B Tyrrell had advised Moffatt by various means (book, correspondence, map and journal) that the rapids where he died need not be scouted.
Indeed, JBT’s rapids advice had proved so reliable over the previous 11 weeks of the trip that the Moffatt party experienced but one swamp, not one pin and not one dump. As well, the only two dumps of the entire trip occurred in those rapids.
And so I ask the reader to consider Grinnell’s motivation for redacting those three sentences.

Aside regarding the remainder of the trip.
Several persons have commented negatively regarding the survivors’ decision to portage to Aberdeen Lake on the Thelon, rather than continue down the Dubawnt. And so I mention that one canoe had been left over Moffatt’s body. Given than the canoes carried also gear and food, three persons in one canoe would have been less than ideal in the significant rapids (for example JBT’s London rapids) known to lie above the junction.

Thanks again to David. Allan

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A literal mind is a little mind. If it's not worth doing to excess, it's not worth doing at all. Good enough isn't.  None are so blind as those who choose not to see. (AJ)



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PostPosted: January 14th, 2019, 1:55 pm 
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Very interesting discussion, kind of reminds me of Luther, Zwingli, Bucer and Melanchthon in the consubstantiation vs transubstantiation debates.


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PostPosted: January 14th, 2019, 9:16 pm 
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Alan: "I should have referred to the following, rather than to the broken-glass item."

Came after:
"Monday, August 1. Camp #23. Middle of Boyd Lake.
"We stopped on a sandy little island, part of an esker which is being washed away, for lunch. We discovered, much to our annoyance, that 3 of the 12 jars of peanut butter in our canoe were broken and moldy. We now have about 10 jars left, as we were able to salvage some of the peanut butter that had not been affected by either mold or broken glass."

Which means??

To me this: Puts new complexion on Grinnell's "....... two jars of peanut butter had fallen out of a wanigan and smashed into myriad pieces on the bedrock of the river bank......No sooner had we come to this decision (to abandon them), than everyone said, "Well, if no one else wants them, I'll take them." We all laughed and gobbled down the peanut butter as fast as we could get our fingers into the jars, our teeth crunching on the larger chunks of glass, the salty taste of blood mingling with the nourishing taste of peanuts as the thinner slivers punctured our tongues and cheeks....."

and calls into question Alan Jacobs: " I express here and elsewhere my conclusion that nothing written by Grinnell is to be believed. Alan's opprobrium followed by my post on Grinnell's glass impregnated peanut butter chow down.

If Lanouette found reason to salvage 3 jars of peanut butter without remonstrance then surely Grinnell's 2 jar salvation is reasonable.

In both cases, reckless - on the level of dismissing one lying eyes/ears for 50 year old text. Lanouette journal: "The river flowed on swiftly and within a few minutes we heard and saw another rapids on the horizon (Note: At this time, Art figured we had shot the last 2 rapids into Marjorie so this surprised us—actually, what we earlier thought were rapids were only riffles. What lay ahead was the real beginning of the first rapids). From the top, these rapids looked easy—a few small waves, rocks…nothing serious—we didn’t even haul over to look it over, as we usually did."


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PostPosted: January 14th, 2019, 10:17 pm 
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There must be a tale to tell re that lost pack.

Unfortunately Keith Sharp died a couple of years ago. He and the lodge—I’m sure there are many fine stories there.

Loved canoeing the Ferguson River. The lodge was a ghost town when I passed by.

I’ve been enjoying the lengthy discourse...

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http://www.JohnstonPursuits.ca

 


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PostPosted: January 15th, 2019, 9:53 am 
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Is an accusation of lying appropriate for this venue?

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A literal mind is a little mind. If it's not worth doing to excess, it's not worth doing at all. Good enough isn't.  None are so blind as those who choose not to see. (AJ)



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PostPosted: January 15th, 2019, 5:22 pm 
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Alan Jacobs: "Is an accusation of lying appropriate for this venue?"

If this Sartre quote "Man is condemned to be free" is true, then the door is wide open to accuse without restriction. And to be subject to contrapuntal engagement in The Eternal Golden Braid in the warp/weave that dresses reality. It's fugal to resist.


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PostPosted: January 16th, 2019, 8:26 am 
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Another comment regarding Grinnell’s credibility, this one regarding death from hypothermia (also known as freezing to death and death from exposure).
Contrary to popular opinion, freezing to death is not a pleasant way to die. It is so painful, in fact, that I desperately wanted to pass out, to go crazy (or failing that) to die as quickly as possible. [Grinnell book (1996), bottom of p 212]
1. Two reliable sources mention nothing about pain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia
https://www.ranker.com/list/what-happen ... ine-ripley
2. No person who responded to my CCR post mentioned pain.
http://www.myccr.com/phpbbforum/viewtop ... 16&t=46833
http://www.myccr.com/phpbbforum/viewtop ... 3&start=15

EDIT. At the beginning of this post, I should have repeated that Grinnell redacted that three-sentence passage from Lanouette's journal for the day of Moffatt's death.

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A literal mind is a little mind. If it's not worth doing to excess, it's not worth doing at all. Good enough isn't.  None are so blind as those who choose not to see. (AJ)



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PostPosted: January 16th, 2019, 10:56 am 
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Alan Jacobs: "Another comment regarding Grinnell’s credibility, this one regarding death from hypothermia (also known as freezing to death and death from exposure)."

One could argue that lying as a subset of credibility and that credibility contains element not found in lying. One could argue that within lying there are element which can be distinct of other elements of lying thus making lying itself a superset containing sets which are exclusive of each other.

thus your:" I express here and elsewhere my conclusion that nothing written by Grinnell is to be believed." finds tension with "Grinnell’s credibility" because if "nothing written by Grinnell is to be believed" especially when mixed with your "Is an accusation of lying appropriate for this venue?" then it appears to me that to you an open and shut case. Grinnell cannot be believed because "nothing written by Grinnell is to be believed" Grinnell belongs to the set the deplorable irredeemables. Condemned.

Now to your "1. Two reliable sources mention nothing about pain. " juxtaposed to "Contrary to popular opinion, freezing to death is not a pleasant way to die. It is so painful, in fact, that I desperately wanted to pass out, to go crazy (or failing that) to die as quickly as possible. [Grinnell book (1996), bottom of p 212] " I read it in context and then read it again. There is a solid argument to be made that

2. "a distressing sensation in a particular part of the body"
3. "mental or emotional suffering or torment:"
and not 1. "physical suffering or distress, as due to injury, illness, etc." are at play. I will make a follow up case supporting 2/3.

"words matter" and the "context" in which those words are spoken also matter. Grinnell quoting Oscar Wilde (pg. 215): "I do not mind dying, but I do not want to be there when it happens" speaks of the mental state of a terror (3. "mental or emotional suffering or torment:" ) and not a physical state (1."physical suffering or distress, as due to injury, illness, etc")

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PostPosted: January 16th, 2019, 4:27 pm 
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The food supply.

Moffatt’s provisioning.

Asides.
Moffatt had outfitted perhaps six trips on the Albany River in Ontario.
My best efforts failed to access J B Tyrrell’s response to Moffatt's first letter.

Excerpt from his first letter to JBT.
Of great importance also is the fact that we must carry sufficient supplies for the entire trip—the administration of the Northwest Territories will allow us to carry a rifle, but it is only to be used if we are in danger of starvation—which we feel is rather late in the game to begin living off the country. Nevertheless, we are prepared to travel under these conditions. [18 December, 1954]

Excerpt from his second letter to JBT.
Your suggestion that we will face starvation unless we have good rifles is certainly to the point, and I wish the Administration of the Northwest Territories realised that in forbidding us to use rifles until we are in imminent danger of death they are putting us in a very difficult position. However, if those are the terms on which we may enter the country, we will have to face them or stay home. I believe that by restricting our diet to oatmeal, hardtack, bully beef, dried potatoes and macaroni, we ought to be able to feed four men well enough for the three months we expect to be on the barrens. I’ve eaten worse food longer and survived. [14 January, 1955].

The corresponding assertion of Kingsley.
When Arthur Moffatt set off for the Barrenlands, he envisioned a land of plenty. He was plenty wrong. [Up Here, left column on p 88, May 2012]

The food supply in the six weeks before Moffatt’s death.
In the interest of brevity,
I omit the evidence regarding the supply in the periods before the shooting of the first caribou and after Moffatt’s death, and
I provide only some of the evidence of the participants.

The evidence of Grinnell’s book, the primary source used by Moffatt’s accusers in the matter.
The first caribou was shot on 5 August, the fifth and last on 5 September. In that period, the party caught many fish (three species), acquired ptarmigan by various means, harvested blueberries and mushrooms, and accessed the food cache left for them by a survey party.
Evidence 1. Caribou! … hundreds of caribou, then thousands more. … The hunters returned to lead me to their kill… We carried the butchered caribou back to camp and that evening gratefully ate forty-two steaks. [5 August. book, pp 97&98].
Evidence 2. Full bellies… [several days after 5 August. book, p 113].
Evidence 3. …Skip, Joe and Art picked blueberries… Art baked up a delicious blueberry “Johnny Cake” …caribou soup… dehydrated mashed potatoes …freshly butchered caribou steaks …full bellies. [12 August. book, p 115].
Evidence 4. A second full bellies [“12 August”. book, p 116]
Evidence 5. …we took a holiday to kill our second caribou... [11 August. book, p 127].
Evidence 6. Dinner was a splendid affair: delicious trout Peter had caught, … , the best cuts of meat from the caribou Bruce had shot, savory mushrooms, … buckets of blueberries… [after 20 August. book, p 135].
Evidence 7. One day, Art pulled into an island to cook lunch. We were running out of hard tack and other luncheon supplies; so instead of a cold lunch, Art decided to boil up a pot of fish soup, the fish having been caught by Skip that morning. [book, p 146].
Evidence 8. I picked up my .22 and went to shoot a ptarmigan I had spotted. [book, p 147].
Evidence 9. Over the ensuing weeks… we killed our third, fourth and fifth caribous… [book, p 156].
Evidence 10. … I went to hunt ptarmigan. I killed five with my .22 before running out of ammunition, then killed two more with my hunting knife. [28 August. book, pp 156 and 157].
Evidence 11. we began to spend more and more time hunting, fishing and gathering berries. [book, p 158]
Evidence 12. As it grew dark at the end of the day, we saw an unfamiliar object ahead… It was a stack of cardboard boxes with cans of dehydrated vegetables inside… We…raided the dump… [7 September. book, pp 180&181]
Confirmed as follows. …24 one-pound tins of dried Beardmore vegetables—carrots, beans, spinach, cabbage and beets. The guys went crazy. [Moffatt’s journal, Sports Illustrated, lower left column, p 82]
Evidence 13. At the lunch stop on the day of Moffatt’s death, …Pete latched onto a 17 ½-pound orange-fleshed lake trout and wrestled with him for 20 minutes. [14 September, Grinnell book, top of p 202]
Aside. Confirmed by LeFavour, who gives the weight as 20 lb. [The Evening Recorder, Amsterdam NY. Part 3 of 4, p 8; 29 December (1955)].

Four evidences known to no accuser.
Evidence 14. I was not feeling too well today, probably from eating too much caribou yesterday, …[22 August. Franck (Pessl book, p 99)].
Evidence 15. We … were so full we could hardly move. [28 August. Franck (Pessl book, p 108)]
Evidence 16. …I had prepared such a huge breakfast that none of us could have moved much further than the tents anyway. I felt as if I would have crashed right through the bottom of the canoe and sunk like a stone if we would have been loading. [30 August. Pessl book, p 110]
Evidence 17. Up to that point (13 September) we had shot five caribou and by doing so had saved enough meat to see us through. Now it was not even necessary to spend time hunting. [LeFavour. The Evening Recorder, Amsterdam NY. Part 3 of 4, page 8, 29 December (1955)].

The corresponding assertion of Murphy, made in what was alleged to be a review of Grinnell’s book.
Lack of food…contributed to his (Moffatt’s) demise. [Che-Mun, Canoelit section. Moffatt, Myth & Mysticism. Spring 1996, pp 5 &11]

The corresponding assertion of Kingsley, whose primary source was Grinnell’s book.
The caribou were long gone. [Up Here, lower right column on p 90; Paddle North, middle of p 188]

The related assertion of the Sports Illustrated editor.
Food was becoming the question now. [SI article, left column on p 76, 8 August]
The editor had access to no publication of Grinnell (although the two had collaborated in the writing of part of the SI article) but had full access to Moffatt's journal. It documents the shooting of the first caribou three days earlier, more generally the shooting of five in all; of these, the editor mentioned only that shot on 11 August.

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A literal mind is a little mind. If it's not worth doing to excess, it's not worth doing at all. Good enough isn't.  None are so blind as those who choose not to see. (AJ)



Last edited by Allan Jacobs on January 17th, 2019, 7:44 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: January 16th, 2019, 9:16 pm 
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"The food supply.

FTA (Alan Jacobs): Moffatt’s provisioning.

Asides.
Moffatt had outfitted perhaps six trips on the Albany River in Ontario.

*****************************************************

I have no argument with 3 rifles and an assortment of fishing equipment an survival. Especially when I compare it with one rifle a few hooks an some fishing line in Sleeping Island. Putting aside the glass impregnated peanut butter of the 5 of 12 containers of peanut butter, the one thing that troubled me was the Klick. I will let a post at a Klick forum do the talking!

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PostPosted: January 16th, 2019, 11:29 pm 
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"The food supply.

FTA (Alan Jacobs): Moffatt’s provisioning.

Asides.
Moffatt had outfitted perhaps six trips on the Albany River in Ontario.

given that the supplies never arrived one could argue the relevance of Moffatt's outfitting experience mooted to some degree. Raiding the a store's shelves for what was on hand is not typical for provisioning an expedition.

This except is interesting:

Excerpt from his first letter to JBT.
Of great importance also is the fact that we must carry sufficient supplies for the entire trip—the administration of the Northwest Territories will allow us to carry a rifle, but it is only to be used if we are in danger of starvation—which we feel is rather late in the game to begin living off the country. Nevertheless, we are prepared to travel under these conditions. [18 December, 1954]

Because it references "a rifle" to be used "if we are in danger of starvation" They carried 3 rifles - a 22, a .30-30 and a .30-06. Triple redundancy!?


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PostPosted: January 17th, 2019, 8:02 am 
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No redundancy at all.
The .22 was used for the ptarmigan (some of which were obtained by other means), I doubt for the caribou!
Should more caribou meat be needed, better to send out two parties than one.

EDIT. And what if one rifle got lost or damaged?

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A literal mind is a little mind. If it's not worth doing to excess, it's not worth doing at all. Good enough isn't.  None are so blind as those who choose not to see. (AJ)



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PostPosted: January 17th, 2019, 9:03 am 
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AJ---not sure what point is being discussed re food, but it sounds they had a case of 'protein poisoning', known to happen to other wilderness explorers.

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