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PostPosted: August 12th, 2018, 2:36 am 
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jefffski wrote:
[...]
Modern flat water boats are 16-18 ft long, have minimal to no rocker, 500lb+ carrying capacity ( not including two people) and no keel. [...]

With 'flatwater' boats I assume you mean tandem touring canoes.
For Flatwater Sprint or Marathon any canoe substantially shorter than 17' will probably not be a winner. ;)
For Flatwater FreeStyle a tandem canoe over 15 feet is long and for solo play a 13 feet one can be ideal.
Solo touring canoes can be much shorter than 16 feet too, depending on the load they have to carry. My 15' solo canoe is long enough for me, and if there was a shorter version of 14 feet, it would probably suffice for me now too. I have owned a 13'5" long solo canoe, and although too small to take much more than me aboard (160lb), even that length was certainly not bad for me and it tracked very well indeed!

Depending on the load you carry and the size of the paddlers, a tandem touring canoe of about 15 feet can be long enough for easy paddling and will track well depending on the design. A too long/big canoe will be just more work to keep on course and get going.

The best tracking tandem touring canoe that I have ever paddled was the Swift Quetico 15'. Probably it was too 'modern' for its time (around 1990) as it didn't sell well enough and was quickly replaced with the more stable and maneuvrable Mattawa, which to my surprise is a very easy canoe to paddle too.

Quote:
500lb+ carrying capacity ( not including two people)

My maximum load including us two paddlers (±300lb) was about 450 lb. A tandem touring canoe designed to paddle well with (500+300=)700lb aboard would have been way too big for us and would certainly not track better but even worse!

Dirk Barends

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Last edited by Dirk Barends on August 16th, 2018, 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: August 12th, 2018, 9:30 am 
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Prospector16 wrote:
I dunno our Scout troop has several canoes with keel and several without, and no question at all the ones with keel are easier for the less experienced Scouts to handle in a bit of rough weather or wind.


Are the keel lines the same w.r.t. rocker, lifted stems etc., as well as sheer lines on the boats you are comparing?


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PostPosted: August 13th, 2018, 7:33 am 
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A few things to add to your 101...

Stem - the entry and exit point of the canoe

Stem band - a brass or aluminum band to protect the stem mostly found on wooden canoes

Sheer line - the line that follows the gunnel. The name comes from the time when canoes were covered with canvas and the excess material was cut or "sheered" off before the outwhale was installed.

Plumb, Flared or Recurved - can refer to the profile of the stem or can be applied to the sides of the canoe though on the sides recurved is referred to as Tumblehome.

Most of the canoe manufactures had name for different models. Chestnut named their canoes to make it easier to order them by telegraph before the age of fax, telephone or internet. Most of the Prospector were named after Hudson's Bay trading post and they were a series of canoes, Garry if I recall correctly was the 16 foot version. Chestnut also had a series they called Pleasure canoes and Pal was the most common 16 foot version. Different trim or paint version of their canoes had different model names. They had a series called Feather Light and the Bob Special was in that category. The Bob is actually less slender than a comparable Prospector but it had a pronounce V shaped hull instead of the shallow arch of the Prospector. Peterborough canoes followed a similar naming convention. I have an extensive collection of old canoe catalogs if you are interested in looking through them, its quite interesting. People who bought some of the old forms from Chestnut when they closed noted that when restoring the forms they found another layer underneath suggesting that the company added width to their canoes over time to make them more stable. That can be seen as the specs changed over the years in the catalogs.

Hope that's of help and interest.


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PostPosted: August 13th, 2018, 5:52 pm 
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Oh hey I know that place - you pass by it going to Algonquin Park and I exchanged emails with the guy back in 2013


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PostPosted: August 15th, 2018, 10:49 am 
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Prospector16 wrote:
Oh hey I know that place - you pass by it going to Algonquin Park and I exchanged emails with the guy back in 2013

Don't know if anyone else is scratching their head but I am because I went back through this thread and I don't get it... just curious... what "place"?


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PostPosted: August 15th, 2018, 5:19 pm 
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Whoops I replied to the wrong thread - hand tight :-)

EDIT: this is the thread I'd meant to reply to http://www.myccr.com/phpbbforum/viewtop ... 20&t=40108


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PostPosted: August 15th, 2018, 7:05 pm 
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Well, there are a few things I would correct if I were putting it out there. Instead of going with canoe names, perhaps list design features, for instance traditional (symmetrical) vs modern (asymmetrical) and discuss the benefits of both. The traditional prospector which is closely emmulated by Nova Craft usually has a standard set of traditional features. However, each canoe company tends to have its own Prospector, and they all vary quite a bit. So it is better to refer to canoes based on their design and intended uses, and include measurements for length, width, depth and rocker. It is difficult to make general statements when dealing with canoes.

Birch bark canoes did not use saplings for gunwales or ribs. They were pieces of cedar, usually carved out of cedar trees with crooked knives and axes. Gunwales were tied on using the roots from black spruce trees.

Keels will add very little directional ability to your canoes. Just because they have keels does not mean they go straighter. Instead look to the shape of the canoe, the hull design and the rocker. Chances are your keeled canoes have little rocker and as a result track straighter. As mentioned before, keels are usually included on fiberglass layups to increase strength to the hull.

I have been running a high school wilderness canoe club for around 20 years. We paddle mostly Nova Craft Prospectors now because I find them to be very forgiving canoes for new paddlers. Although they are not initially hard trackers, after about two days of paddling, most kids have no problem keeping them going straight , and the rocker is appreciated when running swifts or paddling larger waves on a lake.

If you can find a grant somewhere, Nova Craft offers outfitter prices if you buy more than four canoes at once. I recently bought 4 NC prospectors in fiberglass for an extremely good deal, cheaper than I could build a canoe for.....they have keels, but are otherwise very similar to the royalex prospectors. They weigh in at around 67 pounds, which is pretty good, our kids have no problem portaging them over long ports.

What kind of qualifications is Scouts asking of its canoe leaders now? In the education field, due to many instances of poor judgement in the past resulting in student deaths, the qualifications for doing canoe activities has become quite rigorous, with new ones being brought in last year due to the unfortunate death in Algonquin Provincial Park.


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PostPosted: August 15th, 2018, 9:31 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback - I'll review and incorporate some of all of that into my document. Some of it is already there.

Scouts requirements are essentially left up to the local Group Committee with some basic requirements from Head Office - each group consists of Colony (Beavers), Pack (Cubs), Scouts (Troop), Venturers and Rovers as the youth groups that get out and do things, and then Group Commissioner in charge of it all, as well as other folks like Treasurer, Secretary, and Registrar all part of Group Committee.

The regulations you can find easily under Bylaws, Policies and Procedures which you can find here. Search on the word "canoe"

http://www.scouts.ca/bpp/en/bpp.pdf

What you'll find there is fairly straightforward, fairly loose, but it works. We get a lot of training on making sure everyone is safe. That said, I'm really fearing that incident last summer with the school trip is going to affect us.

In addition to that, we have to fill out a trip permit application which looks like this :

http://www.scouts.ca/bpp/forms/Camping- ... cation.pdf

This leaves a lot of the judgement up to the local group which I really like.

Basically the first time you do a certain activity it may get a lot of scrutiny at a Group Committee meeting and they may request certain things to ensure maximum safety. Lots of questions will get asked and answered. Then each successive time you do that activity you have experience to build on and approvals get easier but never to the point of complacency.

Our canoe program is pretty solid though of course still needs work - we all need work always. That reminds me, there is another document I wanted your collective input on. I'll clean it up and post it in the next few days. It is the collective knowledge handed down as part of our canoe program - how to make it safe.


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PostPosted: August 15th, 2018, 9:38 pm 
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The wording on that trip permit is a bit different from the one I recall - that one is from 2007 and maybe there is a more recent one I'll look. But the first bullet which talks about a first aid kit essentially gets at the point : is basically says, paraphrasing, "At least 1 person knows what they are doing here"

That applies to anything you are doing, and it is up to the Group Committee to determine whether or not we have at least 1 person who knows what they are doing. Or also if we need 2 or 3 people who know what they are doing. But technically by National guidance we only need 1.


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PostPosted: August 15th, 2018, 9:40 pm 
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Oh and we also have to file an emergency plan specific to the activity.


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PostPosted: August 15th, 2018, 9:45 pm 
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Oh and if a camp is longer than 3 days and 2 nights (weekender) or if you are crossing the border or if one of a few other criteria are met like risk level, then you need a parent consent form specific to the activity. Some groups request these forms for every activity no matter what but technically that is not required because parents agree to accept a certain amount of risk in the paperwork they sign when registering.

http://www.scouts.ca/bpp/forms/Parent-G ... t-Form.pdf


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PostPosted: August 15th, 2018, 9:47 pm 
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Girl Guides is a different matter - a few years ago the mom of one of my Scouts came on our 5 day canoe trip and she is a Guides leader. She said they essentially can't do canoe trips anymore because of the requirements which IIRC included national level certifications and what-not. I've never looked up their requirements myself.


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PostPosted: August 16th, 2018, 6:46 am 
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Girl Guides instituted changes after a terrible outing on Lake Huron where two sisters, 11 years old, died from hypothermia. Basically, the girls were supposed to go swimming, but the leader decided it was too cold, so they grabbed some canoes and went out into strong winds of 30 k an hour. Canoes capsized, and by the time they were rescued, the two girls had died.

The Coroners report made a list of recommendations to the Girl Guides, which they adopted.
https://www.sootoday.com/local-news/rec ... nada-93243

Basically, trip leaders have to have a Canoe Tripping Leader certificate, and they want all sterns people to be certified with Lakewater or flatwater level A.

The same recommendations were made to Scout Canada at the time, as well as several other canoe type organizations.

Our school trips are guided by OPHEA, the insurance company for public schools. For your interest, here are the requirements for students and instructors.

http://safety.ophea.net/safety-plan/169/1948

When i was younger, I used to see every new regulation as an obstacle to running a successful program. After doing it for 30 years, I now see them as just another risk management tool, and generally try to embrace them.


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PostPosted: August 16th, 2018, 7:31 am 
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I would call that an over-reaction to the situation, personally. One person makes a really stupid decision and so they go ballistic on the regulations. But there is a lot of good material at the Ophea link that we can discuss at Group Committee. We already do most of it out of common sense.

I am sure it is probably coming, though. And it will mean fewer canoe trips, if any. We might be able to build certifications into our program but it would be challenging. I know the Sea Scouts do it but all they do is paddle. There is also a difference with a teacher who will get certified and then be in the program for 30 years, versus a Scouter who stays as long as their kid is there which is 3-4 years at the Scouts level.


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PostPosted: August 16th, 2018, 10:36 am 
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In todays litigious society, governing boards are prone to over reactions for sure. Personally, I don't think kids need to be certified before they can go on a trip, although it is nice to be able to do so. We can do that now, as the guy I'm bringing up to take over has obtained his instructors certs for lakewater. But that's something new for us.

Ophea has placed a major difficulty in our path too, due to the APP drowning. The insistance that every trip have a certified life guard who is not a participant could well spell the end of many programs. We usually have kids who are lifeguards, but they won't count anymore. Kids are only allowed to swim with their lifejackets on anyway in our club. We'll see how it works out.

It's too bad there wasn't a regional scout canoe instructor who could certify leaders as they join and express interest. It would only take a couple of weekends, and if Scouts as a whole could offer it for free to its leaders i'm sure many would jump on board.


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