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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: March 4th, 2018, 12:54 am 
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Joined: June 8th, 2015, 6:45 am
Posts: 13
open_side_up wrote:
Good to hear from you Jeff!!!

I've been using the old online JM's for reference, but couldn't bring myself to purchase any out of a sense of betrayal of all the work you put into them and were shouldered out of.

Will happily buy your new products. Thanks for all your efforts!


Same here. I need a new Algonquin map but I'm holding out for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: March 4th, 2018, 9:07 am 
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_ra_ wrote:
open_side_up wrote:
Good to hear from you Jeff!!!

I've been using the old online JM's for reference, but couldn't bring myself to purchase any out of a sense of betrayal of all the work you put into them and were shouldered out of.

Will happily buy your new products. Thanks for all your efforts!


Same here. I need a new Algonquin map but I'm holding out for now.


Regardless of how bad you need an Algonquin Map DO NOT order from Jeff's Map's. No one that has ordered recently has gotten any maps in the mail, yet the $ was still taken from their credit cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: March 4th, 2018, 2:25 pm 
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Joined: March 17th, 2016, 2:10 am
Posts: 108
The Friends of Algonquin make a good Algonquin map as a interim.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: March 7th, 2018, 2:36 am 
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Joined: November 29th, 2006, 12:51 am
Posts: 176
swimmer_sppe wrote:
Are you with Unlostify?


Yup!

swimmer_sppe wrote:
If you are working on the Algonqun map, please, can you add the Mattawa River to it? It is such a great gem, especially for beginners.


You're the second or third person to ask that haha. Honestly, I'm kind of surprised.

Regardless, at the very least I'd say that it'd be a bad, bad plan to tie it to Algonquin. That'd mean that the scale would have to match, and that it'd be tied to the Algonquin release cycle and vice versa.

I don't think that makes sense considering the travel patterns are completely independent.

Really, if we were to do it, it'd deserve to be a map unto itself, with full consideration to the things that make it unique (which, honestly, I couldn't tell you since I haven't paddled the Mattawa yet, but every single place I've ever mapped is special in it's own way).

The reason it's not on the to do list right now, along with many other places, is just time and resources.

As is always the case, our ambitions outstrip the time available, and so it just comes down to prioritizing.

(Also don't forget, every new map carries with it a commitment to continued maintenance)

Manufacturing is an issue too. To print a map affordably you need to print thousands of copies at a time, and we very much don't want to be selling 4 year old maps.

New technologies can help here somewhat (printing-wise), but our new range of maps are so specialized and technically complex to manufacture, it becomes harder and harder to find any company that's capable of printing them, period. So lower run sizes would have to be paired with a regression on that side of things.

(Digital is a whole other thing, but see my point above about our ambitions outstripping the available time)

Prospector16 wrote:
So recped was just speculating - and was wrong.


Especially early on I didn't say much, both because it wasn't something I wanted to think about, and because I didn't want to screw myself over, so that's created a bit of confusion. Apologies for that!

Quick Summary:

-I started making the map of Algonquin, just for myself at first in 2006
-I posted a later version of it online for free in 2008
-I eventually made printed books in 2009ish (Haha, I hadn't wanted to since sales, logistics and manufacturing didn't seem fun, but I relented after I had people telling me they needed printed copies for the map to be useful)
-In 2012 I was about to finish university and was almost done the 4th version of my Algonquin map. My friend, Eric, encouraged me to do the map stuff full time. I indicated that for that to work it'd need to be in a format other than a book (since that wouldn't work at retail). Eric offered to loan the money.
-Without bashing him too much... Eric did some stuff that made it very clear to me that I couldn't be around him in any capacity. After much negotiation, he refused to leave. So I did. (November 2016)
-Deki had been helping me with some of the monotonous work like placing labels and such since.. the end of 2015 or so I think? He was volun-told that he was done midway through 2016.
-After I left, he decided to create his own maps. As you might imagine, despite being asked, that was not very appealing considering what'd just happened with Eric. Anyhow, he sure was persistent, and on a trip in November last year we got talking... and then in December I joined him!

So, summary... Eric was my old 'business partner'. After I left, he stayed at Jeff's Map. He, for lack of a better term, 'is' Jeff's Map since I left in November 2016. I'm with Deki @ Unlostify now (as of December of last year).

@open_side_up, _ra_ - :). You won't have to wait too too much longer!

token60 wrote:
Regardless of how bad you need an Algonquin Map DO NOT order from Jeff's Map's. No one that has ordered recently has gotten any maps in the mail, yet the $ was still taken from their credit cards.


Sigh............... So many things to say about that. None of them very nice.

I just feel absolutely terrible for anyone who's ordered maps. I get a few emails a week and all I can tell people is to call their credit card company..... :(

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: March 7th, 2018, 7:02 am 
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JeffreyM wrote:
we very much don't want to be selling 4 year old maps.


I don't see how that is possible with even a single map of Algonquin when you consider all the routes. Unless you have a big staff that spends a lot of time tripping.

The only way to achieve that in my view is with a live crowdsourced map that allows user comments and gets updated in real time digitally based on comments from trusted users.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: March 7th, 2018, 2:50 pm 
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Location: Timmins
Prospector16 wrote:
JeffreyM wrote:
we very much don't want to be selling 4 year old maps.


I don't see how that is possible with even a single map of Algonquin when you consider all the routes. Unless you have a big staff that spends a lot of time tripping.

The only way to achieve that in my view is with a live crowdsourced map that allows user comments and gets updated in real time digitally based on comments from trusted users.


That's where the paddler army comes into play! We've personally sent Jeff countless sets of tracks/data over several years for his projects. The crowd-sourced method is great!

I once had a guy razz me about the Upper Hollow River and how it must be reallllyyy easy and well traveled because it's on Jeff's Maps with waterfall names to boot! Basically, he accused me of lying to him about route conditions when he asked for some details and I told him to expect a bushwhack slog :-? . We supplied Jeff the info and 'named' the falls for the map :lol: Never heard back from him....

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: March 7th, 2018, 5:41 pm 
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Prospector16 wrote:
JeffreyM wrote:
we very much don't want to be selling 4 year old maps.


I don't see how that is possible with even a single map of Algonquin when you consider all the routes. Unless you have a big staff that spends a lot of time tripping.

The only way to achieve that in my view is with a live crowdsourced map that allows user comments and gets updated in real time digitally based on comments from trusted users.


I think Jeff had an Algon map before the big fiasco with his ex-partner happened. I was wondering when it would re-appear.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: March 7th, 2018, 6:10 pm 
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Joined: March 17th, 2016, 2:10 am
Posts: 108
The reason I mentioned the Mattawa is because the Amable Du Fond River flows from Algonquin Park. Adding the Ottawa River between Mattawa and around Deep River/Pembroke would really improve the knowledge and use of that area.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: March 7th, 2018, 7:04 pm 
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Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Why stop there? Include everything to the Gulf of St. Lawrence........

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: March 8th, 2018, 1:21 am 
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recped wrote:
Why stop there? Include everything to the Gulf of St. Lawrence........


Ideally, he could eventually.

I am just looking at what is near Algonquin and a natural extension of a map. If you know the area, you would agree.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: March 8th, 2018, 3:40 am 
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Joined: November 29th, 2006, 12:51 am
Posts: 176
Stajanleafs wrote:
Prospector16 wrote:
JeffreyM wrote:
we very much don't want to be selling 4 year old maps.


I don't see how that is possible with even a single map of Algonquin when you consider all the routes. Unless you have a big staff that spends a lot of time tripping.

The only way to achieve that in my view is with a live crowdsourced map that allows user comments and gets updated in real time digitally based on comments from trusted users.


That's where the paddler army comes into play! We've personally sent Jeff countless sets of tracks/data over several years for his projects. The crowd-sourced method is great!

I once had a guy razz me about the Upper Hollow River and how it must be reallllyyy easy and well traveled because it's on Jeff's Maps with waterfall names to boot! Basically, he accused me of lying to him about route conditions when he asked for some details and I told him to expect a bushwhack slog :-? . We supplied Jeff the info and 'named' the falls for the map :lol: Never heard back from him....


LOL That's hilarious!

Yea, I mean, there's a HUGE gap between updating every 4 years and updating in real time.

As Brad says, I've found the crowdsourcing method to be fantastic successful (thanks Brad and everyone else who contributed!!!)

Over about 600 days or so I've probably roughly covered 60%-70% of the park personally - a reasonably large amount of time, but, as you point out, much of that was years ago. The thing is, I can speak intelligently, and had a pretty good/up to date knowledge of just shy of every official route park-wide (and then some).

wotrock wrote:
Prospector16 wrote:
JeffreyM wrote:
we very much don't want to be selling 4 year old maps.


I don't see how that is possible with even a single map of Algonquin when you consider all the routes. Unless you have a big staff that spends a lot of time tripping.

The only way to achieve that in my view is with a live crowdsourced map that allows user comments and gets updated in real time digitally based on comments from trusted users.


I think Jeff had an Algon map before the big fiasco with his ex-partner happened. I was wondering when it would re-appear.


Yup! 2006-2011. Longer than I was with Jeff's Map actually.

swimmer_sppe wrote:
recped wrote:
Why stop there? Include everything to the Gulf of St. Lawrence........


Ideally, he could eventually.

I am just looking at what is near Algonquin and a natural extension of a map. If you know the area, you would agree.


To be clear, I do appreciate the enthusiasm :). Haha, if you look at my old work, you can see I had a very liberal definition of what constituted 'Algonquin' - for that exact reason. Canoe routes don't magically stop at an imaginary border.

I'm just saying that, if nothing else, a Mattawa R map deserves to be it's own thing. It shouldn't match the scale, wonky north orientation, etc of the Algonquin map just because they're nearish.

As an aside, one of the few unofficial routes I knew of but didn't have good portage info for was the Amable du Fond from Kiosk to the Ottawa R. Regardless, while I would've really liked to include it, my overall impression from what I read was that the Amable du Fond isn't exactly the easiest way to get to the Ottawa R, especially in the spring (arguably Bissett Cr or the Barron R are better, though they're much further away).

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: March 8th, 2018, 3:47 am 
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recped wrote:
Why stop there? Include everything to the Gulf of St. Lawrence........


As an aside, this reminds me of the Quetico map I'd been working on before I left Jeff's Map.

Man, I must've increased the scope on that like 4 or 5 times? It just kept growing and growing and got further and further behind.

From Quetico proper it eventually expanded to include HUGE swaths of crown land to the west, north and east, as well as almost all of BWCA, a chunk of Superior National Forest, etc etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: March 8th, 2018, 6:01 am 
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JeffreyM wrote:
recped wrote:
Why stop there? Include everything to the Gulf of St. Lawrence........


As an aside, this reminds me of the Quetico map I'd been working on before I left Jeff's Map.

Man, I must've increased the scope on that like 4 or 5 times? It just kept growing and growing and got further and further behind.

From Quetico proper it eventually expanded to include HUGE swaths of crown land to the west, north and east, as well as almost all of BWCA, a chunk of Superior National Forest, etc etc.


Maybe you could do 2 sets of maps that over time covers all of Ontario......

TBH, lots of the area North of the French River/Algonquin has many paddle and hiking routes that locals know, and are slowly becoming popular.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: March 8th, 2018, 9:11 am 
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The enemy of a good plan is a perfect plan. Like swimmer said...I'd rather have a basic map that gets me into a brand 'new' area over waiting years for perfect one. There must be scads of spots the locals know. The thing I like to avoid is ATV trails and the like that seems to always brings noise, exhaust, bottles, screams, and those that do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff's Maps
PostPosted: April 6th, 2018, 10:38 pm 
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Joined: August 19th, 2011, 8:28 am
Posts: 412
...what the hell's all this now from Eric? https://www.facebook.com/jeffsmap/posts ... 0635951611


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