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 Post subject: thermal underwear thread
PostPosted: August 31st, 2004, 9:29 am 
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Location: San Antonio, Texas
I could use some help when it comes to making a good choice for breathability in the thermal underwear department.

My guess, (correct me if I'm wrong), is that the more commercially available forms of thermal underwear are cotton...and should be avoided.

I think clarification on this would be a good starting point.

The material I'm referring to is that "gausy" looking fabric that is probably the most commonly stocked shelf item in major retail outlets. Sorry, not the best description. But again, is this cheap form of (cotton) thermal underwear...to be avoided?

I know there's some other threads on this from previous years....just thought I'd ask for current input.

Microfleece? Is that the way to go? Polypro? Silk? I don't know much about these fabrics.

Again, this thread is for the innermost layer....against the skin.

I'm looking for a relatively cheap ($) means here....

Thanks,
-Mike


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PostPosted: August 31st, 2004, 9:47 am 
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Mike
We use micro fleece. Found it great under our outer snow pants.
On the top I use both micro fleece and polypro (not necessarily at the same time :P ) and wool sweater. At the last winter gathering I don't think I even wore my parka.


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PostPosted: August 31st, 2004, 9:50 am 
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I wear a set of helly hanson thermals. i have worn them when snowmobiling with only my snowmobiling coat and pants over them in -70 C (i was cold, but lived). i have also worn them under a t-shirt when getting chilled on a summer evening. never too hot, never too cold (except that once), they dry super fast, they carry your sweat away from your body. i have never regreted the $, not once, although i thought i was mental when i bought them. i went to sports authority on a boxing day sale, i think they are regularly 85$ per piece, but i got them for 40% off.

I think any base layer like these are what you want. definitally stay away from cotton. i know others with similar base layers of diferent brands, i cant say for sure what else is good, but check out helly hansons site at
[/url]http://www.hellyhansen.com/[url] go to products go to lifa/versa and then click on prowool. the prowool is described as being a blend of wool, and polypropelyne. sounds strange, but they work, and they work extreemly well! i would hazard a guess that they saved my life that night, and i would buy them again in a hartbeat.


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PostPosted: August 31st, 2004, 10:01 am 
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The MEC stuff is a pretty good value. It's Polartec PowerDry (aka "microfleece") and comes in different weights. I have some midweight, and light weight, and am happy with both (I love my lightweight shirt). It's not cheap, but not too expensive either. They also have some Merino Wool stuff that looks great, but is more pricey. Check out the MEC site here for all of their underwear.

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PostPosted: August 31st, 2004, 10:34 am 
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Location: Barrie, Ontario Canada
Yes, the typical white long johns with the bumpy surface that you wore while playing hockey as a kid are cotton, and not very good. Cotton holds the moisture against your skin. In the bush it's always damp and cold.

Far better are the modern alternatives. You can indeed find soft wool lightweight LJs, but more common are polypro and fleece and silk. Any of them are better than cotton.

What you'll find is that winter camping is frequently hard work. You're either breaking trail, hauling a sled, sawing firewood or chipping a hole through the ice. You'll tend to sweat. It's convenient if your LJs are on the light side, and pass the moisture to your pants and shirts quickly.

Most people's experience with winter cold in the bush comes from snowmobiling and ice fishing. For these sedentary activities, thicker layers are better. But not for winter camping -- you're too busy. Your pattern will be hard work (for which you don't need many layers), resting motionless (for which you need to pull on a down parka, not just a sweater), time in the tent (heated by the stove), and sleeping (for which you should wear 1 layer of dry LJs).

My personal choice is a set of light polypro LJs (not the one-piece -- it's too hard to crap). I like a turtleneck top (no zipper -- cold, and irritating to the skin) to keep the cold drafts from whistling down my neck. I take 2 sets, so that I'll always have one dry.

Over that I wear "whipcord" wool pants. This is a very tough, yet breathable fabric. It is not felt, like the Filmor's. Mine are army surplus -- fantastic pants. They dry very quickly. Highly recommended. Last time I saw some for sale I bought enough to last the rest of my life. A huge benefit of this fabric is that it is fire-resistant. It doesn't melt. That means you can sit close to a fire, really close -- until your knees are cooking -- with no ill effects. It is important to be able to sit close to a fire -- practically in the thing. It means that on a bad day you can receive heat easily from an outside source, rather than having to generate heat from food. And of course if you drop the garment on a wood stove it won't melt. (At Deep Freeze 03, while waiting for the very late train at very cold temps, we had people shivering, but who would not get close to the fire because they didn't want to damage their expensive gore-tex pants. Which is the tail and which is the dog?)

I also wear a wool shirt (sometimes several) which I remove as required.

The commonly-held idea that you can't wear wool because you're probably allergic and will get a rash is nonsense. The polypro is next to your skin anyway.

For working into the wind you need a windbreak layer. The best material I've found for this is, surprisingly, a tight-weave cotton. This blocks the wind yet allows some air to get through. I have a huge, baggy anorak with a deep cowl hood which Robin made for me. It has no lining! This is important! Air must be able to get through it to allow the sweat to transpire from your other layers. It's not your parka. That's what you pull on when you chill off during rest stops. The very deep hood allows me to cross a lake into a strong wind -- the wind doesn't penetrate the trapped air where my face is. (Nearly all commercial hoods are cut away at the sides so you can see traffic coming -- useless.) Wonderful garment. Light and thin too -- when I'm overheating I remove it, roll it up like a towel and tie it around my waist -- takes about 10 seconds.

For the wind-layer for your legs, it is convenient to have full length zips. This allows you to remove or don them without taking off your snowshoes. MEC sells a nylon wind pant made this way for about CAD$30. (Not of cotton, unfortunately.)

All in all, I don't take much more clothing for winter camping than I do for fall camping -- because of the hot tent. Just a parka, the wind layers, gloves/mitts, Sorels, and a toque/balaclava.... maybe an extra heavy wool shirt.

I'm talking about camping at the latitude of Sudbury. Winter temps here rarely get below -35C or above freezing. I take no protection against rain. If -- God forbid -- it warms up that much, I stay in the tent. It's an awful time to travel.

If it's likely to be very cold (Hoop's latitude, NW of Thunder Bay) -- -30C/-25F or worse -- the felted pants would be better. Again, if possible (and sometimes it isn't), travel at these very cold temps is difficult enough that I try to avoid it.

I have no gore-tex winter garments. I think they are inefficient. I do not believe they will pass water vapour through their surface at these cold temps. On a -30C/-25F day the outside of the fabric will be well below freezing. The vapour from your body will condense and freeze on it. If it's warm enough that your bodyheat keeps the surface above freezing, fine, but that won't happen on the cold days. As a kid I remember seeing moist air from a cattle barn freezing onto a spider's web as it escaped a cracked window. Those pores were a lot larger than in gore tex. In winter gore tex cannot do anything for you that a simple layer of cotton cannot do better. (And cotton is a whole lot cheaper -- easier to repair.)


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PostPosted: August 31st, 2004, 10:44 am 
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Oops, I see I crossed some replies.

That's what I get for such a long-winded digression.


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PostPosted: August 31st, 2004, 12:00 pm 
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Location: Paris, On
Dave,

if you try gore-tex you will like it, believe me. like i said i had my gore tex coat and my long johns in -70 C. there is definitally no freezing inside the coat. GT is very very windproof, and i think the breathability factor is awsome. i can come indoors for an hour or two and not need to take my pants off.

Gore-Tex can do ALOT that cotton cannot. for example, cotton is not waterproof, and it sertainly is not windproof. i have never felt wind come threw my jacket or pants, and i have taken them to 115MPH on lakes. i sertainly do not think that cotton would stop water or wind at those speeds.

Try it before you judge. my father would not try it, untill i convinced him to spend the $ last year. he wore his suit for several day trips, and kept saying that it was no better, untill we had a really warm sloppy day, and he said that his old pants definitally would have been wet. then we had some miserable cold, and he noted that he didnt have any cold spots in his coat. So you may not notice it untill you get an extreeme, and when you do, you will know the difference. i really beleive that my goretex and my undergarments saved my life that night in Quebec. if i was wearing the gear that i had in the years previouse, my life may well have been on the line.

I should add, though, that alot of people think that gore-tex is supposed to do everything, but it doesnt, it is ONLY the wind & water stopper. you have to add the insulation under it. the insulation being you underlayers, or whatever insulation is in the coat.


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PostPosted: August 31st, 2004, 12:50 pm 
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Location: San Antonio, Texas
Thanks for the replies...

Dave, thanks especially for the more detailed account on things...(some very useful suggestions).

I'm currently doing the thrift store circuit....(looking for finds)...and this helps in knowing what to look for and steer clear of. Sure I won't find everything via this route...but it's a start.

Correct me if I'm wrong....but are the brown colored thermal underwear you typically come across at army/navy stores made of the polypro fabric? It has kind of a smoother sheeness on the outside, and a more fur-ballness on the inside.

Tonite I'm off to get some used downhill skis (for sled). I'll sure be glad to have these in the workshop to then be able to work-around.

-Mike


Last edited by MVGMVG on August 31st, 2004, 3:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: August 31st, 2004, 12:51 pm 
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I think we are talking two different scenerios here. While Gore-tex may be great for what you are using it for, winter camping will certainly prove the opposite.
Back your butt up to a campfire and you will find out in short order what we mean. As far as I'm concerned for camp use, wool will out perform or last much longer than Gortex or other synthetic materials.
Now saying that, I would love to have a good G.T. suit if I was, say hiking across Lake Nipissing in the winter.
Last spring I found some 28 oz virgin wool pants, that I think would be bomb proof. Mind you they were $85 but they would last a life time.
These are on my wishlist.


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PostPosted: August 31st, 2004, 1:16 pm 
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i have spent much time around camp fires, and no i dont know what you mean! agian, i dont think wool is very windproof. perhaps i am missing something here?


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PostPosted: August 31st, 2004, 1:36 pm 
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What I'm trying to say is, if I was standing around a campfire and a spark lands on my $300 + Gore-tex jacket and burns a hole in it I would be pretty choked. For all around camp-chores as Dave said you would be better off with something a little more rugged. If you are off snow-shoeing, skiing, etc. change into the GT for sure.


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PostPosted: August 31st, 2004, 1:46 pm 
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ya that would suck. i have often worried about that a bit when collecting firewood with the saw and draging it threw the bush etc...

that would definitally be a consideration, to find a jacket with a good strong outershell. though a good hot spark would likely make its way threw almost anything.


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PostPosted: August 31st, 2004, 2:03 pm 
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It would definately spoil your day. :cry: I have a great pair of Snow Boarding pants that are fantastically warm (not that I snow board), but I have a couple of burn holes in them. I bought them for winter camping and they are good but as careful as I am I still managed to get some holes. I seem to remember Bill P at DF-04 (and DF-03 if memory serves) with duct tape over the extremely large holes in his nylon shell.
Each of the materials definately have their purposes and limitations. I for one am always on the look out for the most rugged and practical to suit what I am doing.


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PostPosted: August 31st, 2004, 5:17 pm 
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Just my 2 cents here....

Depending on what time of year you want to use them in, you may want different materials and / or weights.

For cold winter I use heavy fleece (bought at Marks Work Warehouse for cheap).

For average winter I use either lighter weight fleece or Helly Hanson Smartwool (kind of pricy but very warm): http://www.altitude-sports.com/Products.htm?ID=7270

For summer I wear these: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_deta ... 3990239258

I often sleep in my long underwear, but always make sure its a set that I reserve just for sleeping so that they are always dry.

I am looking at getting perhaps some silk for summer sleeping. I hate the feeling of a clammy, humid sleeping bag so I want something that will cover my skin but not heat me up on those hot and humid nights.

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PostPosted: September 1st, 2004, 4:54 pm 
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Merlin is right , I got a little to close to the fire last year, my down coat wasn't very forgiving. Melted the outer shell instantly. My wool pants[ bought at goodwill heaviest suit pants I could find] never even got a hole in it. Gortex is great but I wouldn't use it for winter camping in a hot tent, the very nature of hot tenting would bring it to close to the stove. I now will use of layers of fleece and wool and for windy days a cheap nylon outer shell. Polar fleece under wear and tops worked great I have the micro fleece set from mistymountian bought at canadian tire. We went on a early morning fishing trip at deep freeze 2004, when we got to Squaw Lake my top was soaked , my body heat dried it within 1/2 hour and then I added layers as I cooled down.

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