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PostPosted: September 2nd, 2004, 8:51 am 
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Location: Barrie, Ontario Canada
Erik,

I missed the thread where you described your life-threatening adventure in Quebec. Where can I find it?

Dave


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PostPosted: September 2nd, 2004, 12:17 pm 
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Darren Cope wrote:
The MEC stuff is a pretty good value. It's Polartec PowerDry (aka "microfleece") and comes in different weights. I have some midweight, and light weight, and am happy with both (I love my lightweight shirt). It's not cheap, but not too expensive either. They also have some Merino Wool stuff that looks great, but is more pricey. Check out the MEC site here for all of their underwear.

Darren; Polartec(Malden Mills) Power Dry isnt microfleece. It is a wicking layer designed to get the sweat off your body and start transferring the moisture to away. Power Dry comes in three weights designed according to the activity you will be engaged in, most people in winter use the mid weight for skiing and snowshoeing and expedition weight for icefishing and snowmobiling.
Fleece, the insulating layer, comes in at least three thicknesses , 100(micro, for summer or very active wear), 200(all around) and 300 for sedentary winter activities. It gets more complicated though with the addition of Wind Stopper, a Gore tecnhnology that blocks wind and some fleece wear is now rain repellent
Gore Tex usually comes into play in layer three ; the outer weatherproof layer.

For more information go to www.llbean.com "Explore the Outdoors"

I sometimes like wool on spring trips as as insulating layer. For me I like the natural windproofness without the need for that outer layer.
I like it in snow; the snow comes right off the wool pants and shirt. So I will use jjust Power Dry underwear and wool outerclothing for sunny cold days in the snow.


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PostPosted: September 3rd, 2004, 7:41 am 
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I just mentioned it briefly above.

Last year we were in Saint Michelle-Des-Saintes (rented chalet). We were supposed to be heading out for a short day for a variety of reasons, so i did not take my back pack with extra clothing and all of that stuff (emergency kit, with fire starters, food for over night, water, etc..). well darned if we didnt get a little too adventurouse and ended up heading for a 300+ mile day (doesnt sound like alot, but by sled it is!). any way when we left in the morning it was only about -15C so i figgured that the day would only get warmer and so i should be fine with just my long johns under my suit. well by noon hour the gas station clerk told me (we know it was really cold, but we werent prepared for this) it was -37c + windchill.

any way, come night fall when temps dropped to -60 or so, our group got split, into about 3 fractions. my father was on his own and i was with two guys who i have come to learn that i cannot trust. they ended up leaving me behind, and i was on my own. i knew i was headed in the right direction, but once i got to the lake, i couldnt recognise my way across it. just then, i re-joined the group i thought my father was with, it was bitter sweet. i found people, but then i learned that my dad was on his own. i knew i had frost bite on my fingers (my small finger was frozen almost solid, i couldnt really move it at all) and my face at that point in time, and i was trembling uncontrollably. so i was very worried about my dad. but he is very good with direction, and remaining very calm in the worst of situations, so i held out hope that he was sitting in the chalet by the fire.
well me and the other two guys made it across the lake and to the chalet, but we were the first ones there. by now it was approaching -70c. i wasnt thinking straight. after a half hour by the fire, with hot drinks and all, we were no where near able to go back out, to start looking for our parterns, but fortunatly they slowly started trickling back in.

It was damn scarry, i learned alot about what i can do, and what i can survive (there were times where i really didnt think i was going to see my kids again). It also taught me alot about who i go out on adventures with. we typically go on two to three big trips with these guys in a year. but as soon as my dad walked in the door of the chalet, after the big hugs and all that stuff, i told him i never again would go out with those guys.

since then, especially on the winter camping trips, i will only go with individuals i know will be there, with the group, no matter what.


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PostPosted: September 3rd, 2004, 11:12 am 
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300 miles by snowmachine is ALOT!
Thats fifty miles an hour average for a six hour day! Must be wide open lakes.
How do you plan for that and what do you carry?
It seems you would need full survival gear and fix it stuff and maps and snowshoes and winches and extra clothes tent water etc.


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PostPosted: September 3rd, 2004, 12:25 pm 
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A 300 mile day is a long day, probably 12 hours. we stop frequently. its not very often that we are taking lakes, unless that is the way of the trail. we just ride hard threw the bush.

as far as gear, i usually have snacks and water that i can eat threw the day or survive on in an emergency. i also typically take an extra layer in my back pack and make sure i have room to take a layer off if need be. for lunch we make a camp fire to cook on. i always have a road map of the area and a trail map of the area. and that is about it. ohhh a big one is a spare container of oil. on the really long days i can actually use a full tank of oil and you cannot buy the good synthetic stuff in remote areas of quebec.

Usually one person in the group carries a tow rope. prety well every sled now comes with spare belt holders and tool kits.

and dont forget your cash. the longest day i put in was close to 350 miles, i think i used almost 200$ of gas. (ssshhh dont tell greenpeace!)


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PostPosted: September 4th, 2004, 2:55 pm 
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Back to the original thread:

People are getting polypropylene and polyester mixed up.

"Polypro" is polypropylene, which is old technology that has mostly been replaced except for a few applications. Polypro grows bacteria gardens like crazy, and you will be stinking real fast. It shrinks (melts) in the drier at hot temperatures. I would stay away from any polypropylene long underwear product since you have a much better option.

Polyester is the material woven into all the new, excellent long underwear, and various types of fleeces. Yes, you are wearing the newest "polyester leisure suit" and never even knew it. There are many brand names out there (Malden's Polartec is one that most garment manufacturers use).

All the medium and high end modern long underwear is made of polyester, and its great. It works like it says. It also washes and dries well at hot temperatures.

Polypro is still used for liner socks and gloves, and some cheaper brands of long underwear. It does wick moisture very well, but I much prefer a Smartwool thin wool sock liner, and polyester mitt and glove liners.

Re: the outer layers, listen to Dave Hadfield. He knows what he is talking about. I differ from Dave' s system in the upper body, using thin and thick fleece combinations. But I stay with the wool pants. Around the fire, or in strong winds, I put my cotton anorak on. And with respect Erik, you are missing something. When you are hauling sled, gathering wood, making and breaking camp, you will quickly overcome the breathability of any synthetic shell on the upper body. The amazing big baggy cotton (tightly woven thin material) anorak as the outside layer has not been surpassed as the ultimate outer garment for self propelled winter travel and camp living, south of the Barrens. Your Gortex shell, when doing self propelled travel, will have you soaking wet very fast, and it will be quickly be burnt by dozens of spark holes from an open fire. If you have no spark holes in it yet, you lucked out. Yes Gortex fabrics are the best for stopping wind. I paddle in them when the weather is really nasty (like this year up in the arctic). But you cannot afford to have any internal moisture build up in the winter.


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PostPosted: September 4th, 2004, 3:46 pm 
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Erik wrote:
Last year we were in Saint Michelle-Des-Saintes ...
....any way, come night fall when temps dropped to -60 or so, ....to the chalet, but we were the first ones there. by now it was approaching -70c.


Come back to earth, Eric! :wink: :D It probably felt that cold, but I doubt it reached these temperature. From the Canadian Encyclopedia, here's the country's record cold:
Quote:
Lowest Temperature
SNAG, Yukon, has the dubious distinction of recording the lowest temperature in Canada at -62.8º C on 3 February 1947. For more than a week before that day, cold air from northeastern Siberia stalled over the Yukon. Skies were clear, winds calm, visibility unlimited and 38 cm of snow lay on the ground. An exhaled breath of air made a hissing sound as it froze and created vapour trails that extended 100-500 m above the ground for 3-4 minutes before disappearing. Exposed skin froze in less than 3 minutes.
© Copyright The Canadian Encyclopedia 2001 World Edition Copyright © 2000 by Stewart House Publishing Inc.


When you say "sled", you mean snow mobile, while Hoop and Dave are talking toboggan with the human husky in front.... It's different and the clothing gotta reflect that!


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 Post subject: Winter clothing
PostPosted: September 5th, 2004, 6:10 am 
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I'm one of the old style people. Wool underwear, wool insulatiing layers, and cotton shells.

Why wool underwear? Wool is warm even when wet (actually, wool gives off heat when it dries), it is comfortable -- in my mind -- even after a few days in the same set. And around stoves and campfires I certainly don't want the layer closest to my skin to be something that can/will melt. I've seen a burn from a metev Helly-Hansen fleece jacket. Not pretty, not pretty at all.

Why wool insulating layers? Same factors, it works, even for a week or more, and can take the abuse of wilderness travel. WTF am I to do with a melted fleece garment when I need it now?

Cotton outer shell? Partially I agree that it is more breathable in cold temps than GT, but also it is safe around the campfire, stove, saw, etc. Mine is two layer high grade cotton, I'm thinking of making a new set in Ventile cotton (which is about as windproof as GT).

With a wool-cotton set of clothes I know I can repair the kit if it breaks, and I know that it is durable enought to stand up to my style of winter travel.

Par


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PostPosted: September 5th, 2004, 10:38 am 
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Location: Mt Brydges, Ontario Canada
Are there any outfitter or retail stores that sells wool clothing new (esp. pants)?
I've pretty much exhausted the 2nd hand stores around the London area, and haven't found anything (atleast that fits me!!)


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PostPosted: September 5th, 2004, 4:35 pm 
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And tightly woven cotton outer shells?
I cant help Sir Campsalot...there are alot of US retailers that sell wool pants by mail order like Beans and Cabelas...but its hard to try on long distance. Filson is a good brand to look for. Pricey and worth it.
I have always gone GoreTex...you see alot of fancy ventilation systems on those items like jackets because of the moisture build up issue. And for where I am where rain is always possible (freezing fog is frequent in winter down to -15 C, and occasionally rain too at the same temp) I wouldnt give up my GoreTex. But it seems worthwhile on nice clear snowshoeing days to have a cotton anorak on to break the wind and have skin protection and leave the Gore Tex for the non-snow precipitation( it would always be in the pack...it might rain in the next five minutes).
It all depends on where your trip is...cotton or goretex...a yo-yo climate or refreshingly consistently cold.


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PostPosted: September 7th, 2004, 10:06 am 
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Erhard wrote:
Erik wrote:
Last year we were in Saint Michelle-Des-Saintes ...
....any way, come night fall when temps dropped to -60 or so, ....to the chalet, but we were the first ones there. by now it was approaching -70c.


Come back to earth, Eric! :wink: :D It probably felt that cold, but I doubt it reached these temperature. From the Canadian Encyclopedia, here's the country's record cold:
Quote:
Lowest Temperature
SNAG, Yukon, has the dubious distinction of recording the lowest temperature in Canada at -62.8º C on 3 February 1947. For more than a week before that day, cold air from northeastern Siberia stalled over the Yukon. Skies were clear, winds calm, visibility unlimited and 38 cm of snow lay on the ground. An exhaled breath of air made a hissing sound as it froze and created vapour trails that extended 100-500 m above the ground for 3-4 minutes before disappearing. Exposed skin froze in less than 3 minutes.
© Copyright The Canadian Encyclopedia 2001 World Edition Copyright © 2000 by Stewart House Publishing Inc.


When you say "sled", you mean snow mobile, while Hoop and Dave are talking toboggan with the human husky in front.... It's different and the clothing gotta reflect that!


well, i can only go by what we had available to us. one was an undiluted jug of anti-freeze, which when mixed is supposed to be good to -65 and it was frozen solid. the thermometer in my truck, which is typically quite accurate in normal weather, it read -58 at 10 am with the sun hitting it. we had the block heater on all night, and the truck would not even think about turning over in the AM. so if the antifreeze was lying and the trucks thermomiter also, mabe it was only -50 or so, but in any event it was damn cold. we took hot steeming water out to wash the seat of my SNOWMOBILE and it froze on contact, you could watch as it started to drip off the edge of the seat, and it froze into icicles as it driped, nothing hit the ground (i dont know if i explained it correctly, but it was like a scene out of a movie). i have been on mountains that were supposed to have been -45, and this was an entirely different thing, completely different.


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PostPosted: September 7th, 2004, 10:29 am 
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that is funny hoop, according to the manufacturer polypropelyne is bactiria resistant, what resistant means is obviously vague, here is their description of the polypropelyne materials


TECHNOLOGIES: LIFA

LIFA is a base layer that transports moisture away from the body. It uses polypropylene yarn which is hydrophobic so, as well as moving moisture, it maintains a dry layer next to the skin. To be most efficient, LIFA should be worn next to the skin as part of the Layering System.

Unlike cotton or wool, polypropylene does not absorb moisture. Polypropylene is more efficient than other synthetic fibres at transporting moisture. The result? You stay drier.


Moisture regain is a "keep dry" factor. If a fibre regains moisture quickly (a higher number), it will keep getting wet, which can lead to conductive heat loss. Look for fabrics with fibres with the lowest possible moisture regain.

pp: 0.05%
pe:0.4%
nylon: 4.5%
wool: 16%
cotton: 8%
silk: 11%

Lifa:
-has elastic knit constructions for unrestricted freedom of movement
-has a close to body fit, retains its shape and will not pill, even after repeated washing
-dries quickly, so your body stays dry and comfortable
-is soft to touch, and soft on the skin
-is resistant to bacteria so it does not retain odour
-is available in three different weights - Sport, Active, Prowool - to meet different performance needs, in different climates


again, this is the manufacturers specs and info, i have no idea what of it is real info. they dont even explain what the %'s really are, or who determined..... blah blah, but any way... that is all i could find.


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PostPosted: September 7th, 2004, 10:49 am 
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Quite a story, Eric. As you say, it would have been good to have a survival kit, including a sleeping bag, on board.

I've got myself in trouble a couple of times, pushing through to my destination, when it would have been better to just admit no, I can't get there tonight, and "it's time to look for a stand of firewood". That's the hardest part for me, in a situation like that -- just admitting that no, it won't work, and I can't get there tonight. Give up. Go to plan B.

Glad you all got through OK.

As for the wool pants, Bill's idea of heavy old wool dress pants isn't bad. Older suits and uniform pants were often quite heavy fabrics. The whipcord wool pants I use were, I think, a US Army officer's uniform pant.

The very heavy felted wool pants are overkill at the warmer (-10C / 15F) temps, in my experience, but of course more welcome when it gets very cold.


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PostPosted: October 26th, 2004, 1:32 pm 
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One place to check for poly/fleece thermal underwear at a decent price is Mark's Workwearhouse. Pretty sure the price is still in the under $30 range this year. I got a pair of longjohns for Christmas last year and they are way warmer than the old style cotton ones.


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PostPosted: October 26th, 2004, 1:32 pm 
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Anybody have sources for kid sized poly long underwear?


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