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PostPosted: July 30th, 2004, 1:00 am 
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Location: San Antonio, Texas
Hi,

Was wondering if you hot tenters out there would take a look at this particular Coleman model and let me know what they think of it being retrofitted for use as a hot tent:

http://www.coleman.com/coleman/colemanc ... ryid=11030

I've read thru previous postings and comments from others...that many/most hot tents are floorless....with some type of sod cloth or ground cover being laid down.

This model has your typical inline "bathtub" floor....or at least I presume it does.

My main concern is whether this inline floor is going to be a problem....yet if the wood stove were up on legs...I can't really see what the problem would be.....as long as the footprint for the tent area were tamped down pretty good before erecting the tent....by "snowshoeing" the area....?

Maybe a floor cutout just for the immediate stove area would be better...

I've looked at the canvas wall tents....but they're just too heavy. I want something to be as portable as possible so I can solo with it.

I really don't know how tricky the pole installation/setup is for this model...

As far as retrofitting....I'd probably do a cutout of a wall/ceiling section and replace with canvas where it was in the immediate area of the stove.

Few reasons why I like this model:

*being that it's a more mass produced Coleman....it'll probably drop down to the $150US dollar range when on sale

*good rectangular, walled area, cubic area (9' x 12') for stove to operate within

*good standing height of 88" at center point

*being some type of nylon...it should have a pretty low weight relative to canvas

While I haven't gotten an actual weight on this yet....I'll probably call Coleman.

I see that it partitions into two rooms....that could probably be opened up into one.

Anyways...if anyone's got any feedback on this...I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,
-Mike


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PostPosted: July 30th, 2004, 10:53 am 
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Hi,

I called Coleman this morning...

Entire unit weighs 32 lbs.

However this includes fly, "in-line" bathtub floor, and it's own self-supporting poles...instead of cutting poles from the bush.

It also has two large meshed ventilation windows in the ceiling...that would probably need to be covered up with nylon via use of velcro.

Anyways...would really appreciate some comments from anyone who's got some thoughts on the questions I posed earlier...and/or what their take is on the use of this as a retrofitted hot tent.

Thanks,
-Mike


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PostPosted: July 30th, 2004, 1:45 pm 
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Just a couple of comments from someone who doesn't own one, but who has grown to appreciate the wonderful decadence of hot tents. I'm sure some of the more experienced folks will chime in.

First, staking and poles. Consider the surface you will be setting up on. You may have several feet of snow. Stomping out a pad and allowing it to set will provide a firm platform. Still, it will be very difficult to be able to reliably stake into the ground. There are solutions around this, such as deadmen and possibly crossed stakes (which is what I use for my free standing tent). Your poles will need to be longer to get to something solid. Building a frame with onsite materials to hang the tent from is the standard practice. A snow fly goes over this frame and the tent to provide an airspace and allows snow to slip off. You could always shovel out down to ground level to set up.

The floor. Snow flaps are turned to the outside of the tent. This allows you to pile snow on them to get an effective seal and provide some stability to the walls. Turning them in will result in a frozen mess when you try to tear down. One of the reasons hot tents don't have floors is that the snow inside can become furniture. Raising your sleeping platform will provide you a much warmer sleep. It also gives you a place to sit. I was quite amused the first time I saw someone bring a load of snow INTO the tent to replace what the heat had melted away.

Finishing the inside of a standard hot tent usually consists of laying a layer of balsam branches on the floor and on the sleeping pad. The balsam branches can come from the poles that get cut. They make the interior a very warm and comfortable place. Tear the branches apart rather than cutting will eliminate getting poked and make the bed/seat feel softer.

Cutting the poles and getting balsam branches is the main reason hot tents are fairly high impact, along with the massive amounts of wood they require to maintain their warmth. The larger the tent, the bigger the fire you will need.

Tony


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PostPosted: July 30th, 2004, 2:24 pm 
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Location: San Antonio, Texas
Hi Tony,

Thanks for the reply....I'd like to pick up on this discussion further....but probably won't be able to get to it....until sometime later this weekend.

In the meantime....do you have an Algonquin canoe route map...either in paper format or via pdf on your computer?

No biggee...but to show you a route and how it relates to this hot tenting...would better illustrate some of my points and some of the issues you raise.

Let me know.

Thanks,
-Mike


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PostPosted: July 30th, 2004, 9:32 pm 
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Location: London, Ontario CANADA
It's not a bad starter, when you think of the space and what you can do with it.

First thing is you will lose space for people once you put the stove in it and to my thinking this tent resembles kinda what Merlin's first hot tent was like. In their tent they put the stove in the middle and then you could sleep 2 on either side to make a tent for 4.

You'd definitely want to rip out the floor, add flaps and remove the inside separation walls not to mention canvas at least 5 ft across and to the ceiling wherever you might put the potential stove location as well as a sheet metal cut-out for the stove pipe somewhere out the wall side or ceiling.You know, a little more work to do and you'd be in the same boat as some of us who will be building their own hot tents soon.

Most people used the wall to exit the stove pipe from, it seemed to be easier when adding the roof fly to avoid contact with each other.

One thing about tenting is usually you park where the Lead Dog says so, once the place is set, you then set the tent up as it is needed for the space and unless you know the pad your going to, terrain changes and your setup is bound to be altered each time you go out.

Our last year setup worked out fairly well where we stamped out our pad and dug down to set our tent up on the ground. One side was high and the other was low but the snow even'd out our sleeping area ( by day 3 or so!) Yes, we usually ADD snow to our sleeping pad.

It's a learn as you go project, you can't go just once and know what will be best for you as I'm sure that there are plenty of folks here who are still adjusting their gear after each trip, me included!, just to make things easier for the next trip.

The Cool thing about a gathering is that you learn from either your mistakes, other folks mistakes, or from different ideas you pick up along the way.

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[color=green]For love of the wilderness, A journey begins...[/color] [color=brown][b][Nature's Calling...] So get OFF(!) THAT(!!) THUNDERBOX !!![/b][/color]




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PostPosted: July 30th, 2004, 9:46 pm 
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Image


Snow coming into the Smokey Lounge....


also,

take a look where the stove pipe comes out
that's canvas along that face wall and there is also 5 ft along the front side adjacent to the stove.
there's also the pole setup
and take a look at the slope altogether
the remainder of the Mine not Richard's tent is Ripstop nylon and it weighs in about 17lbs ( same weight as a Jay pack!!)
with this setup I believe 10' by 12' we had 5 guys in it.
Also note the door is only held by a couple of ties and the one side is staked ( by a log) and the opening side overlaps the other.

at least this might help


Cheers

_________________

[color=green]For love of the wilderness, A journey begins...[/color] [color=brown][b][Nature's Calling...] So get OFF(!) THAT(!!) THUNDERBOX !!![/b][/color]




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PostPosted: July 31st, 2004, 7:24 am 
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Location: Barrie, Ontario Canada
It's not optimum for a sled trip for a few reasons, but keep in mind that human beings can make anything work, and that the important thing is just to go!

It's huge. Do you need to sleep that many? A large tent means a large stove plus a lot of firewood and then an extra sled to haul it. As small as possible is better. (When you're hauling, all that seems to count is weight. Humans make lousy sled dogs.)

The roof doesn't slope much. It won't shed snow. In a heated tent, if it snows, the snow melts and sticks to the roof, rapidly accumulating anough weight to bring down the structure. You can deal with this by keeping the stove roaring, but what about when you sleep, or when you go out for a day hike? The standard wall tent method is to set up a fly spaced just clear of the roof, which thus stays cold and allows the snow to stay crystalline and just slide off. I don't see how you could arrange that here.

As Tony said, don't plan on staking anything in the Shield forest -- the snow is soft and deep. Your tent is most easily braced from trees.

Mike, where are you planning to travel? If in northern Canada, cutting a pole or 2 is not a problem. In winter you don't set up where you would in summer. Odds are that no one will ever know you once camped there except for the neat little pile of sawn firewood you leave behind, and the few poles which you leave leaning up against a tree back out of sight.

In winter, you don't camp for the view, you pick a place for shelter and materials.

At last year's gathering I used 2 poles for my wall-tent set-up. That's alI. We walked into the bush looking for a level place in a glade of young spruce, where if I cut one pole I'd then have space for the tent. I used this one pole to bridge the clearing, tieing it to 2 trees and hanging the tent from that. I was able to tie all the tentlines to bushes on one side. On the other side there were none, so I anchored a pole between 2 trees and tied to that. Quite simple and low-impact. (I have seldom made a full 7-pole set -- too lazy.) I've often made 1-pole sets.

My wall tent weighs 14lbs (plus 2 lbs for a fly, plus 1 lb for a groundsheet) and at 8 x 10 is small enough to be heated by a 9" x 9" x 22" stove, which weighs only 10 lbs. It'll sleep 3. This means a light load on the trail -- very important if you're off the beaten path.

I think you deserve compliments for daring to think about going in winter and trying to come up with creative solutions! Please take the comments in the positive spirit in which they're offered.


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PostPosted: July 31st, 2004, 10:47 am 
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Tony, Georgi and Dave,

Thanks for your replies.

Your comments have moved me to pretty much nix the notion of retrofitting of the Coleman, (as much as I liked the little bugger)….damn….sewing double seams really doesn’t appeal to me.

Actually, Dave, your thoughts that it’s too big are probably right. And the roof slant was something I hadn’t given much thought to.

Georgi, when you emphatically mentioned about getting rid of the floor…I guess that finally sunk in….(how you wouldn’t want to be drudging snow trackings into a bathtub floor).

Tony….your description of the interior and concerns for setup in a winter environment really helped.

With that said…and there were other good pointers, (that I’ll consider later), I’m still not clear on what the shape and cutout/folds of a hot tent’s sod cloth would appear like.

For simplicity sake, let’s say the new hot tent design was more of a square prospector hut……an 8’ x 8’ square hut.

Can one of you please tell me the dimensions of a sod cloth for this design…and how it folds, etc.

Dave…coming from Niagara Falls, I’m 6 hours from the Algonquin Hwy 60 corridor. That general area would be my first destination for a winter trip.

I’m still set on bringing my own poles. The reason being is that my first trips will be solo.

In my experience with canoe solo tripping….everything is much more rudimentary than with group travel. As an example…if you underestimate terrain difficulty when going solo…everything gets backed up…and you find yourself doing camp setup easily 3 hours later than what you originally anticipated. Now add to this the shorter winter day…the sluggish snowshoe and sled factor…and the greater necessity for wood cutting for warmth in the winter….Heck!….you’ve got some major chores here, when soloing.

But that’s what I want to do…. 8)

With these considerations…I can’t see myself making and erecting timber poles from the bush…..(it’d wipe myself out).

I want to be able to hike in from one point and trek to an area for the first nite….have minimal setup so that I can concentrate on two main factors…(obtaining firewood and doing some good cooking).

I’m serious about the cooking….I want to experiment with things like bannock…where a wood stove heat source will probably provide better uniform cooking control…than something like my direct source pocketrocket.

Then, have simple breakdown of camp on the following morning…so that I’m able to “pickup the pieces” and move on to another site for the next nite...all self contained….(the next nite’s site being in the range of 2 to 3 kilometers).

I guess you’d call it “hut to hut” trekking like I’ve read about in Maine…..but, where I’d be bringing along the hut.

I’ve been doing some more research online….and I found the following outfit in Idaho:

http://www.walltentshop.com/

I emailed this guy and he seemed to be pretty responsive….got back to me within a day.

What was appealing to me on this site….was the fact that you can buy angle kits separately from him….(as he recommends, you can then purchase 1” electrical conduit for your poles…and then just use angle kits from him, etc). One thing I don’t know about yet…is how to splice together a section of pipe….so that you’re not lugging 8’ sections of pipe...but that shouldn't be too big of a deal...you'd just need to create splices with a little larger ID/OD with holes/pins, etc.

So, this seems to be the direction I’m going in now. A little square Prospector hut….with poles onboard the sled. I want the center height to be about 6’ 6”…so I can stand up in the unit.

By the way….my snowshoes arrived in the mail today….got a hybrid Faber pair from someone ebaying them from Quebec.

Thanks again for your replies….if you get the chance….I could use clarification on the sod cloth…and/or any other thoughts.

Hope to make it to DF 05 if invited….for now….I need to get my proficiency down pat.

Doing a solo canoe trip next weekend…this winter tripping ranting helps me fill in the pages between trips….not to mention helping immensely on the budgeting of things by spreading out cost over the long haul.

Long winded as usual….but at least I spilled my purse.

-Mike


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PostPosted: July 31st, 2004, 11:51 am 
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All of this talk is getting me excited about winter camping. Summer has been miserable, way too much rain with the resulting mud and bugs limiting my outdoors activities. Just a few random comments.

Here is a website that has numerous tent designs that I keep reviewing. I keep saying no, but a hot tent may be in my future someday. By then I will have the perfect design figured out. :wink: One of the keys is a tent that "hangs" from the outside. A simple tarp pulled over the hanging tent provides the snow protection.

As Dave mentioned, the cutting of many poles is not necessary. Creative use of ropes can help, and they are much lighter than metal poles. A single rope could be strung between trees for a ridge line, or for tying off the wall guys. One of the other tips I have picked up from Dave is looking for a flooded area to camp, the numerous standing dead trees can make for low impact poles and firewood gathering.

If you do want to carry poles, simple straight couplings can be found at the hardware store to connect short pieces of conduit.

You targetted travel distance of 1 - 2 km is probably about right. 5 Km breaking trail on snowshoes without a sled is a good days work going solo. Ask the DF04 guys, 5 kms is a good days work pulling sleds in a group when you take turns in the lead. Don't underestimate the importance of weight, even if it is on a sled.

Snow flaps are continuations of the side walls, not connected in the corners. Imagine turning on open cereal box upside down (eat the cereal first to avoid the mess) with the flaps sticking out. I think I have usually seen 2 foot flaps made from plastic tarps to reduce freezing to the snow.

Tony

PS Of course you are "invited" to DF05! If it was an exclusive event there is no way rif-raf like me would get to go.


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PostPosted: July 31st, 2004, 1:03 pm 
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MVGMVG wrote:

Hope to make it to DF 05 if invited….

-Mike


You better be there after subjecting us to all this winter stuff in July, and you'd better be buying the first round. :clap:

Here is a retrofitted canvas Tourist Tent - it belongs to lbpuppy of this site. An excellent, well thought out setup for the solo minded.
Image

This tent could easily be set up with one extendable centre pole for the tent, a ridge line for the tarp, and all other points tied out to the many available trees.

Thinking outside the box is good.

I have some pictures of sleds and harnesses if I can find that other post of yours, which shouldn't be to difficult, but right now I'm going back to prepariing for a 10 day trip I have coming up in two weeks.

Are you in jail, with nothing else to do but think of your release date in December. :lol:

P.P.P.P. - Proper Planning Prevents Problems. It's never to early to start working on these adventures - that's half the fun, right?

Hope you can handle a little raz.


Last edited by Rick on July 31st, 2004, 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: July 31st, 2004, 1:06 pm 
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MVGMVG wrote:
Hope to make it to DF 05 if invited….for now….I need to get my proficiency down pat.


As Tony has indicated, there are never specific 'invitations' to anyone for any of the gatherings. They're open to all and any who feels like attending.

As far as getting your proficiency down pat before attending ... there are certainly a few things you'll want to get organized, but the Deep Freeze events are a perfect place for a beginner to get some experience. You'll be out there with a lot of people with a wide range of experience, there's lots of help available, back-up equipment, warm places to 'retreat to' ... in short, it's probably the safest introduction to winter camping you could ask for.


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PostPosted: July 31st, 2004, 1:51 pm 
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Mike.... a guy with this much enthusium has to come. :P Like Richard said you will learn more at this gathering, and if something doesn't work out with you kit, there is always a place to warm up in. There is lots of people there willing to share their experience and knowledge.


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PostPosted: July 31st, 2004, 2:59 pm 
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Rick: I was gonna suggest that he check out Cliff's (lbpuppy) tent as well. I thought that was a pretty cool setup......just an old canvas tent with the floor removed and a stove pipe sewn in. I've actually been checking ebay once a week or so since DF04 trying to find a tent like that. Bummer is my parents used to have one too!!

Mike, check out Cabella's, I know they've got nylon wall tents complete with stove and poles. Only problem is they may be a little too big for a solo trip. You may also want to check out the karifu tipee (sp?) Sorry, I don't the link, but BackPacker magazine rated it as a best buy for foul weather camping. Very lightweight and functional.

Tony, thanks for the link to that site. I like that Rutstrum tent......I remember reading in his Paradise Below Zero about using two tents together and the air space inbetween acts as insulation. I also recall him modifying his stove some how too, with a damper, so that it would pretty much burn all night. $1500 though OUCH!!

We may be in trouble at DF this year......it sounds like everybody wants to build their own hottent!!!

Must be getting near time to get the DF05 planning forum going??!!!!


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PostPosted: July 31st, 2004, 4:20 pm 
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http://www.kifaru.net/TIPI.HTM


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PostPosted: July 31st, 2004, 7:27 pm 
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I've never been quite sure how Rutstrum's backdraft worked.

I was thinking along Tony's line for a very lightweight rig. There are ways you could stretch a dacron line between 2 trees very, very tightly. You could bring a climber's/sailor's 3-part tackle and use it and 2 carabiniers to make a ridge line bar-tight. (Dacron doesn't stretch much, though I don't know how very low temps affect its stretch.)

It might be a little awkward to get the line high enough, but you can always stand on the grub box or use a forked stick to poke the line up the tree.

From this line you could suspend a wedge tent like Rutstrum's (fine for 1 or 2) and it could have ties fastened to the walls to pull them out a bit (tied to bushes) to add room. A flysheet could go over the top of the rope. If it sags a wee bit, who cares?

Tony described the sod cloth very well. This, turned outwards with snow piled on, makes a perfect air seal and eliminates the need for staking.

I hate to say it, but Algonquin is not all that far north. It's common to get a winter thaw there that doesn't make it north of Sudbury. Just a thought....


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