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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 4th, 2018, 5:26 pm 
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SOLIDARITY ... like an increasingly large group of Canadians, I too am searching for items NOT made in the US. The US and China are at the bottom of my list. I also will not spend any travel $$'s there until that 'disgusting excuse for a human leaves public office'. The current US foreign and domestic policies are having an alarmingly negative affect on 'The World' and that's my business. I have family and several friends south of the border, they keep apologizing but I'm afraid that's just not enuff ... get rid of the bugger! As an aside and just to bring into perspective what many of our American 'friends' really do think about their Canadian 'cousins' ... I travel several social media sites, FB groups etc ... I've observed that MANY Canadians are now wishing our US neighbours a 'Happy July 4th' ... with very few exceptions, I've yet to see wishes coming from them wishing us a 'Happy Canada Day' ... seems petty but I'm just sayin. But don't take my word for it .... as US's statesman Henry Kissinger once said ... '“America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests”'.

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 4th, 2018, 5:46 pm 
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Again I would like a discussion with as little politics as possible. Please
If I understand Nessmuk properly, he likes the increase in military spending and the fact that the stock market is higher than before.
Are these the principle reasons that that 40% of Americans approve of Trump's policies?


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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 4th, 2018, 5:55 pm 
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It's nearly impossible to introduce a topic as contentious as this one, without it becoming at least mildly political in context. Perhaps you should have published your observations and asked for input from others, on another forum ... IMHO and respectfully of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 4th, 2018, 6:08 pm 
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This is the way many Canadians are feeling ...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/july-4t ... -1.4732984

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 4th, 2018, 6:09 pm 
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GHOSLO wrote:
Again I would like a discussion with as little politics as possible. Please
If I understand Nessmuk properly, he likes the increase in military spending and the fact that the stock market is higher than before.
Are these the principle reasons that that 40% of Americans approve of Trump's policies?
In the famous words of a past president: "it's the economy, stupid".


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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 4th, 2018, 7:49 pm 
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I am an American who has spent my two week summer holiday in Canada nearly every summer of my entire life. Therefore I have close emotional ties to Canada and numerous Canadian friends. The fact that I am a US citizen is strictly an accident of my birth and which side of the Great Lakes my ancestors settled. That said, USA is my home. It's where I grew up, where my family is, and where my career is. I can't move just because I don't like the president. About half of my adult life our president has been someone I voted against. Granted, this one is particularly odious, but it won't be forever. It saddens me that he has so damaged international relations that the problem shows up even on a canoeing forum.

In regards to your question on why people voted for him, I liken it to an American "Brexit". Keep in mind less than half the population actually did vote for him. Most of them are probably not the sort of nature loving, environmental conscious people who visit canoeing forums so they probably won't answer your question


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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 5th, 2018, 11:31 am 
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nessmuk wrote:
In the famous words of a past president: "it's the economy, stupid".

So you believe that Trump's tactics are going to be good for the US economy. Can you point me to some expert discussion of this so I can try to understand this argument?


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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 5th, 2018, 1:40 pm 
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GHOSLO wrote:
nessmuk wrote:
In the famous words of a past president: "it's the economy, stupid".

So you believe that Trump's tactics are going to be good for the US economy. Can you point me to some expert discussion of this so I can try to understand this argument?


I suggest picking from each bias slant

https://www.allgeneralizationsarefalse. ... -feedback/

Also see the Patriot thread here.. Yes the current economy is good for some; but the stock market has nothing to so with jobs and job numbers are so unreflective of the stagnation of wages
And for the rest this is life

Imagepolitician outhouse by Kim Gass, on Flickr


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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 5th, 2018, 7:27 pm 
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Quote:
So you believe that Trump's tactics are going to be good for the US economy.


GW Bush's steel tariffs didn't work out as planned, causing job losses and a drop in GDP. The negative effects on the American economy were pretty obvious so they were withdrawn in less than a year. At least that's what we're getting in the news up here north of the border. Donald is taking credit for an increased number of jobs since the election, but IMO the economy reacts more slowly than that so the slow grinding higher in employnment was probably Obama's doing.

Could be an interesting news day tomorrow... Chinese tariffs come into effect IIRC and that will cause prices on some (or many) imported goods to rise. I guess we'll read all about it tomorrow.

PS... c'mon Krusty weigh in with some propaganda here, it's not the first time posts have been wiped.

:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 5th, 2018, 7:38 pm 
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The most recent elephant to enter the room: Doug Ford. Shall we talk about his latest decisions and moves?


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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 6th, 2018, 11:41 am 
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GHOSLO wrote:
nessmuk wrote:
In the famous words of a past president: "it's the economy, stupid".

So you believe that Trump's tactics are going to be good for the US economy. Can you point me to some expert discussion of this so I can try to understand this argument?


No I do not feel the situation is good for the economy, the environment, international relations, or even my personal financial security. I fear that USA is becoming either a pariah or a laughing stock with the rest of the world and is definitely not "great again" Other than fodder for comedians and learning tool for students of political science, I see little good. I'm frankly worried that I will be unwelcome when I arrive in Canada for upcoming annual holiday

Please just don't blame the whole country for the voting decisions of less than half the population or the electoral college system created 200 years ago. I can't change the outcome of the election and I can't easily change my citizenship. I'm trying not to be a sore loser and hoping he doesn't damage too much before his term is over


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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 6th, 2018, 12:17 pm 
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pkroen wrote:
[

No I do not feel the situation is good for the economy, the environment, international relations, or even my personal financial security. I fear that USA is becoming either a pariah or a laughing stock with the rest of the world and is definitely not "great again" Other than fodder for comedians and learning tool for students of political science, I see little good. I'm frankly worried that I will be unwelcome when I arrive in Canada for upcoming annual holiday

Please just don't blame the whole country for the voting decisions of less than half the population or the electoral college system created 200 years ago. I can't change the outcome of the election and I can't easily change my citizenship. I'm trying not to be a sore loser and hoping he doesn't damage too much before his term is over

I think that the majority of Canadians will welcome Americans as always. (I hope so anyways. The majority are certainly upset at your president. I just can't understand how come he still has so much support in the US (~40%).


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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 7th, 2018, 8:47 pm 
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It is pretty low hanging fruit to bleat on Trump.

But, at least we don't have to blame a secret cabal of conspirators working magic behind the scenes while a mere facade of a polite, nicely speaking politician, a polished marketing tool for a party, soothes the masses only to lie or, at least, change his stated policies after the election.

The good thing about America's system is term limits. So, Trump has a built in expiry date, and, if God existed, we could thank him or her for that I suppose, and pray for terms limits in Canada too.

The real 'elephant in the room', or, to be more precise, the 'elephant in our room,' one that would be better to address on a Canadian site, one that would end the back-patting of Canadian nationalists and their haughty self-image, would be Canada's complicity, or at least silence, regarding U.S. foreign policy for the last three or four decades.

I find that there has been little official analysis or criticism of U.S. foreign policy and no formal sanctions. For example: in Iran, we even helped U.S. agents escape from that country whose government the U.S. helped to overthrow - but I find no sanctions for the overthrow itself. There are no official sanctions to found regarding all the mess made in South America - Pinochet, Banana Republics, The School of Americas, etc., U.S. policies that destabilized entire regions and which, I would think, are in part responsible for the illegal migration now occurring at the U.S. border. The U.S. sowed the seed of this problem with decades of poor policy; Trump's rise is not without some historical explanation or causation. And where is the evidence that the Canadian government did anything to prevent this tragedy? And we should not even speak about Vietnam: why was the U.S. there assisting French Colonial rule? Indeed, why is Agent Orange sprayed in New Brunswick? Was this part of Canada's peacekeeping mission in Vietnam - to be a test laboratory for toxic chemicals sprayed over thousands of square kilometers of pristine jungle? Sure, Canada did not send troops to Iraq; but, then again, did nothing to prevent others from doing so - and, surely, what has happened since then - ISIS, e.g., was produced by poor U.S. policies with little attempt by Canada to keep the peace.

Why, with all this mess, did Canada not produce sanctions against the U.S.? And why, with all this mess, does the Canadian myth of the 'peacekeepers' survive?

No, Canada has looked the other way for decades in order to make a profit trading with the U.S., all the while pretending to be Mr. and Mrs. Do-Right, who, when hearing Uncle Sam beat his wife, fail to call the police and look the other way because Mr. and Mrs. Do-Right like to swim in Uncle Sam's pool and use his lakeside cottage for summer holiday. This is the elephant in our room.

In other words, Canada is no peacemaker; it is, at best, a powder-monkey:

Trump is an ass-hat to be sure. But, for Canadians, there is a much more important argument to be having than debating that tautology.

There is a rather famous book, written in 1960, or maybe it is not so famous given how history has played out; but it is easy to buy: 'Peacemaker or powder-monkey: Canada's role in a revolutionary world,', by James Minifie. It is certainly worth considering the arguments given therein at this point of time, even if the historical details are somewhat different for the questions about principles are still relevant, even if, the peacemaker was displaced by the money-maker. I should dig this book out of my library and take it with me on my next trip to re-read the arguments.

I wonder, had Canada been less avaricious, it could have been a more forceful source of international benevolence, rather then merely trade (and, to be honest, most of that international trade has been to circumvent the price of domestic labour, taxes and restrictive environmental laws anyway; these policies were never intended to be some magical policy for the benefit of the great masses of the people or the environment).

As for me, I work outside of Canada. I have done this for more than a decade. I work with people from all over the world. After a time like this, many of us realize that our nationalities are merely accidents of birth and have little to do with our essence or with how or what we ought to think. After a while, we cease to look at each other as Canadians or Americans, as if these are our most important predicates. And, after a while, one becomes more sensitive to the propaganda spouted out in the national media.

But, politics aside, my friend, who is an American citizen, had a dream since he was a kid to visit Algonquin park - for, apparently, the park is quite famous in the U.S. as being one of the best places to canoe. He spoke about this year after year while we worked overseas together. And, last year - 10 years after we first met - we spent a week together there. Again, this year, we are planning another trip, to a different spot though, and I am researching a route on here today when I found this thread about the elephant in the other room (i.e., U.S.A). But, the fact that the national governments are blathering about the price of steel is not going to affect us in any real way, save for a few more dollars to spend: but, that is not a new problem to deal with: inflation and stagnate wages have been normal problems to deal with for decades.

We are not going to let the international system make victims of us: indeed, part of the reason we like to go to such places in the deep woods is to get away from all the hypocrisy, propaganda, immorality, corruption, violence and death that is produced by all of our dear leaders, Canada's included. Nor are we going to merely parrot the national or popular narrative about who we are and what were are supposed to believe (and no, random Canadian I meet in a foreign country, I am not pining for Tim Horton's crap coffee, "eh!").

Of course, we cannot escape the destruction of the global environment; and, without ranting on even more, I am only going to say that I am not optimistic about the probable outcome and what little optimism I had decreased more when that buffoon was elected.

MT.


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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 8th, 2018, 4:34 am 
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(whew!)

<The following is said with a friendly, inquisitive, good-humored tone, as one might address a fellow paddler around the fire at night>

So in summary, knowing what we know now, we could have done better.
Well maybe. The thing about history is that we can't re-wind and see what would have happened if things had been done differently.

Quote:
It is pretty low hanging fruit to bleat on Trump.
Bleat eh? I see what you did there:

shee·ple
noun informal derogatory - docile, foolish, or easily led.
"by the time the sheeple wake up and try to change things, it will be too late"

Quote:
to lie or, at least, change his stated policies
It's either one or the other, right? You have put them on the same moral plane, one slightly less bad then the other, leaving no room for, say, honest re-assessment based on new information. But yeah, it's hard to tell a lie from "an honest re-assessment" and skepticism is warranted.

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in Iran, we even helped U.S. agents escape from that country whose government the U.S. helped to overthrow
So Ken Taylor did bad and should have turned them over to the mob? Really?

Quote:
but I find no sanctions for the overthrow itself
What sanctions are you looking for? Saying mean things to them would have helped? How do you know that your sanctions would have changed the course of history, and that the new course would end up better? And "better" can have different definitions.

Quote:
And where is the evidence that the Canadian government did anything to prevent this tragedy?
It's like all of the issues that Trump faces are Obama's fault for not fixing them.

Clearly we were and still are not perfect, but missing that mark doesn't make us bad by default. There are shades in between.

Can't decide if you are a Soros shill or a Russian troll! :wink: <this is intended to be humorous, not an ad hominem. Sheesh.>


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 Post subject: Re: Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: July 8th, 2018, 9:25 am 
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