It is currently September 25th, 2021, 7:19 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: August 1st, 2021, 4:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: April 14th, 2018, 7:19 pm
Posts: 109
Wilsauceez wrote:
With the spike in crowds; ultimately, this was to be expected. Hopefully when life gets back to "normal" some of these people will give up on their camping dreams. ANNNNND when they realize the outdoors wasn't for them, we can buy all their brand new gear they purchased for pennies :thumbup:


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ ... -1.6105439


That's exactly what's going to happen and I'm going to stock up on gear. I have already prepared my checklist. Lots of Mountain 25 tents by The North Face are being bought for an overnight stay on Tom Thomson Lake in Algonquin Provincial Park.

I suggest you delete your thread so that this is known by just us two.

However, I think this fluke exposure people have got to the world of nature will also captivate at least half of them, and word of mouth is going to bring the numbers back up.

Go North.

On that note, the tent will advertise as "North Face", not "The North Face".
Just so you don't miss it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: August 1st, 2021, 5:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: April 14th, 2018, 7:19 pm
Posts: 109
wotrock wrote:
"Randy Mitson, the marketing director for Algonquin Outfitters in Huntsville, Ont., says most visitors who leave garbage or feed wildlife aren't acting maliciously, but are just not aware of the impact of their actions. "

Really? Some people think it's OK to leave their garbage scattered about?? Don't think so



I think it's true that most people are not acting maliciously. I'll bet some even think "This is like a Motel situation, which I paid for, and like a Motel there should be a garbage can. Where is it?"

This idea of 'packing out garbage' is not something that comes naturally I think, to many people. Throwing trash into a garbage can is one thing (and often needs to be enforced).

But being out in the raggedy trees, and touching it all and scrunching it up and then squeezing it beside your nice new Mountain tent in your pack, to add to your load... I do think that's not an intuitive thing for many of these new visitors.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: August 1st, 2021, 6:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: March 18th, 2019, 7:54 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Brampton
remogami wrote:
I think it's true that most people are not acting maliciously. I'll bet some even think "This is like a Motel situation, which I paid for, and like a Motel there should be a garbage can. Where is it?"

This idea of 'packing out garbage' is not something that comes naturally I think, to many people. Throwing trash into a garbage can is one thing (and often needs to be enforced).

But being out in the raggedy trees, and touching it all and scrunching it up and then squeezing it beside your nice new Mountain tent in your pack, to add to your load... I do think that's not an intuitive thing for many of these new visitors.


Actually I would argue the opposite. I don't think anyone plans a backcountry trip and expects garbage cans. The actual logistics of packing out garbage, or the "intimacy" of burning TP/baby wipes/tampons, are something many people are arguably unprepared for, though. But a lot of people are of the impression that Algonquin, in particular, is a vast, untamed wilderness; it is in fact one of the most highly managed tracts of land on Earth - which is why, with thousands of miles of roads, it still appears to recreationalists to be an untamed wilderness. What's one tampon, in all that wilderness, after all?

All we did in Wabakimi last year was cover the poo and TP with moss, because that's all you can do. There isn't enough soil to dig a cathole in most places, let a lone a latrine. But it's also lightly traveled enough that this is an acceptable practice. In Algonquin, it is not acceptable. Those subtleties do take some time to learn.

My golden rule in the backcountry is "What if everyone did this?". It informs decisions like bathing in a lake, trenching around my tent or not, where to source firewood, rinsing dishes in the lake/river (or the coffee percolator after the dishes are done and dried) etc... I think, in Algonquin in particular, many people don't realize how big a group "everyone" is.

_________________
If you ate today, thank a farmer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: August 1st, 2021, 10:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: April 14th, 2018, 7:19 pm
Posts: 109
Well you're likely mistaken about "not any one person expects a garbage can". I have been asked first hand, when I used to guide trips, by one person from Jane/Finch Toronto "Where are the showers?" a couple lakes off the access. No, that was Temagami. Some people are just kind of clueless about this 'camping' thing. It's totally new to them, the whole concept is foreign. Anything goes.

So it's easy to imagine such a person, plus several others (of the entire population who visited the park due to covid), not being surprised by seeing a wooden box called "TRASH". That would be primitive compared to some kind of shower contraption. So it also would be true that some people would expect such a box, since that is almost the same as not being surprised. Probably not many, but definitely not "none".

Just for clarification, my point was not "they leave garbage because they expect trash cans". My point was "if some people can expect trash cans, a lot more people won't be tuned to this idea 'must pack everything out', where that means collecting it and stuffing it with your tent and carrying it on your back all trip long. I agree with you it's not acceptable for crap to be left in algonquin. This is why there is a problem, because some find it unacceptable, and some don't.

I agree on the intimacy and unpreparedness factor. And yes, that many people don't realise the "everyone" effect. That's a very important point you made, because it is (if you think about it) the Main driving force behind packing out. If you don't think in this "I must do it only because I am in some abstract sense everyone else", then not much is going to motivate you to grab that KitKat wrapper washing with the waves at the shoreline.

And education is not enough too right? Loving the place is a huge force in this. People who pack out are often proud of doing so. Not proud about following the rules.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: August 1st, 2021, 11:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: March 18th, 2019, 7:54 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Brampton
Your experience guiding is somewhat aside. They were specifically hiring you because they knew they didn't know better. I don't fault those folks for not knowing what to expect. I think the issue we're seeing now in the more popular parks is from folks who need a guide, but don't think they do. People who went on a grand scout trip in their youth, and want to relive it - that sort of thing.

And really, I just visited Missinaibi, arguably one of the most remote parks still accessible by road. We camped pretty far in the backcountry there. If I knew nothing, would I be surprised to see a trash can, that would conceivably be visited by park staff every other week or so? Probably not - I mean, it's just, what, an hour long boat ride if you've got a motor, so I can see where those folks are coming from. Why can't the park come and get the trash? What would it take? One dude, once a week, to pick up the trash? (I get your point)

Not that I agree or see the logic in such a train of thought, but I can see how others would. And don't take KitKats. They melt, and horribly so. I recommend Skor® bites.

_________________
If you ate today, thank a farmer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: August 2nd, 2021, 12:14 am 
Offline

Joined: April 14th, 2018, 7:19 pm
Posts: 109
Skor bites sounds like a really good idea.
I don't take KitKats, I just needed a bright color to make things dramatic lol
Usually on big remote trips, the only chocolate I bring is with the gorp, m&ms.
If I want something else I just look for a paddle-through, grab a coffee as well. :)
Yes I think you're right that it's kind of aside when it's a guided trip. Not an ideal example.
Thanks for your thoughts on this topic,


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: August 2nd, 2021, 5:47 am 
Offline

Joined: February 28th, 2018, 10:54 am
Posts: 124
Location: SW Quebec
Those big yellow trash bags they used to hand out - with your permit number written on them - were pretty good at getting the message across.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: August 2nd, 2021, 5:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: November 6th, 2019, 11:01 am
Posts: 88
Location: Toronto
Do the pictures in the original article's post look like someone forgot to pick up a water bottle or a candy bar wrapper? No. It looks like they dumped ALL OF THEIR TRASH. You are right, Packetfiend, it is very easy to feel sanctimonious when this kind of behavior is the reference point.

You can't educate people who trash campsites. I am not talking about, nor do I think the original poster was referring to mild garbage. I was under the impression that we were referring to massive piles of crap left by people. Those people do not care and they won't be made to care. Packetfiend, you are a prick by the way.

_________________
YouTube: Solo Wilderness Adventures
https://tinyurl.com/y8x4ubn4


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: August 3rd, 2021, 7:31 am 
Offline

Joined: May 5th, 2020, 7:08 am
Posts: 15
I was camped at Sandy Inlet last week with the fam (2 yr old and a pregnant wife=no big trip together this year) and the amount of garbage we picked up was brutal.

Vodka soda cans, cookie and candy wrappers, diapers, tuna cans, bug repellent cans, and a full sized bag of trash that was walked way back into the woods. I even had to scoop a full sized chocolate cake out of a tree stump and try to boil the rest out with hot water. I also had the pleasure or burying several piles of human waste and TP (not belonging to me), even though there are 5 or 6 thunder boxes within walking distance of the areas these people chose to go.

I realize that Red Squirrel rd. and this area have gotten busier and can attract a certain type of camper, but come on people. I found my dog feasting on someones discarded pasta in the woods, and retrieved a bag of trash sunken in 4 feet of water right off the beach.

I think Packetfiend has a good point, people are not looking at the big picture as in "what if everyone did this" and only as "my actions won't matter that much".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: August 3rd, 2021, 12:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: March 18th, 2019, 7:54 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Brampton
I will admit, the pictures in the linked article sure seem to suggest some people are beyond help in this regard. But I'm pretty sure it represents a very small minority of people. It looks more like illegal dumping than it does "not picking up the trash". I've seen similar piles of garbage on Crown land sites, albeit not very often.

Yeah, that post was a bit prickish. Sorry about that. I honestly thought we were talking about much smaller garbage problems, and I agree, what that article depicts is not just inexcusable, it should be criminal.

_________________
If you ate today, thank a farmer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: August 3rd, 2021, 12:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: November 6th, 2019, 11:01 am
Posts: 88
Location: Toronto
Thank you, Packetfiend. I also apologize for losing my cool and resorting to name calling. I think that these types of behaviors are indeed limited to a small minority of campers (as you say) and that they probably do coincide with easy-access areas. I would be very surprised to see this kind of behavior deep in the backcountry. Again, sorry for my rude response. Take good care out there.

_________________
YouTube: Solo Wilderness Adventures
https://tinyurl.com/y8x4ubn4


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: August 7th, 2021, 2:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: March 7th, 2021, 4:05 pm
Posts: 24
Location: Pickering, Ontario
We should just give up on changing people's attitudes through education, because we'll never manage that. Start with laws. For recyclable containers, cans, bottles, etc., there should be a deposit so high that it is financially crippling to not return them. If people complain, just explain to them that they only pay that deposit once, because when they take the container back they either get the deposit back or apply it to the next purchase. $1 minimum per container, go higher if that isn't working. If they can't understand that, they don't deserve to be out and about.

Non-recyclable plastics should be banned, like potato chip packets, candy wrappers, etc. Paper products should be made in such a way that once they are removed from a shipping package, they biodegrade in days, perhaps through exposure to light or prolonged moisture. (drink your Timmies double-double faster! :lol: )

People who have been found, red-handed, leaving litter, should face much stiffer fines. And make the fine commensurate to income, so that for the rich it isn't just a license to pollute. If it is in a place like a provincial park or conservation area, they should be banned for a certain length of time.

Backwoods litterers could possibly have their method of transportation impounded, the way we do if a person is found with illegally caught fish or game in their car. People found littering at fishing spots could perhaps lose their fishing licence for a year.

The problem here, obviously, is enforcement; it would take a lot of officers to provide coverage. But 100% 0f the fines could be applied to the enforcement authority involved, whether they be police, conservation officers, local by-law enforcement, etc. This would allow for more hires, which we need anyway; the number of Conservation Officers in Ontario is ridiculously low. And if an initial blitz is successful and well publicised, people may get fearful and slow down with their filthy habits out of fear of being caught.

But education itself isn't going to work. We've been trying that for decades, and the problem is only getting worse.

_________________
“Believe me my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats. Simply messing.” - Ratty, The wind in the Wllows


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: August 7th, 2021, 6:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: March 18th, 2019, 7:54 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Brampton
Interesting. I'm actually on board with the idea of treating illegal dumping, at least in parks, like we do fish&wildlife violations. Because the probability of getting caught is so low, the penalties are extremely harsh.

But then the question is, at what point do you become harsh and severe? It's not exactly fair to do that for a wrapper that fell out of my pocket, but it *is* fair to do that if I just leave a garbage bag out by the thunderbox. It would be a blurry line.

The other problem would be the enforcement. A conservation officer can stop by my site and clearly see if I've caught more than my limit - but he/she can't see if I've left any litter behind, because I haven't, at least not yet. And if they check after I leave, it's all but impossible to prove it was actually me (no, your honour, that was left by someone *after* me... no, your honour, that garbage bag was there when I arrived, I just wasn't able to pack out that much garbage...).

The more I think about it, the more intractable a problem it appears to be.

_________________
If you ate today, thank a farmer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: August 7th, 2021, 8:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: April 14th, 2018, 7:19 pm
Posts: 109
same, all for enforcement but that penalty plan won't work.
too ambiguous who left what, as mentioned.

if they made it so it was minimally ambiguous, wouldn't be the solitude people went out for, constantly spied on, visited, throughout day.

also funding issues, can't see this funded on violator deposits, i think the money has to be coming from elsewhere (permit increase, etc).

take the extreme: suppose fully funded by violators. but, then, that's in a way impossible. because there wouldn't be violators in that case.

EDIT: I mean, there is something fishy about a project being supported by those it works against lol. it's like a fire used to create tons of soap bubbles by it boiling a pot of soapy water. the more bubbles it forms the more they overflow, the smaller the fire, the less bubbles form.

eg, the more the costs are paid by them, the less they violate, the less the costs are paid by them. so there is a period where $ needs to come from outside. it's not self-sustaining, it defeats itself. like there is a period where you need to blow on the fire to get it back up.

put simpler, if the deposits are big enough to prevent violations, the violators won't violate (by definition). the deposits are all sitting there but the park cant touch them to fund it's project lol.

people need to love the land. that's what calls the shots.
even for us 'rule abiding' visitors.
we're not abiding to the rules any more than to our hearts.

increase in bear attacks due to violations would prompt something robust quick.
but we'll see it in our permit cost.
and we'll go North to avoid that madness (so will they)

it all goes back to love of the land.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: August 8th, 2021, 9:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: December 29th, 2002, 7:00 pm
Posts: 6320
Location: Bancroft, Ontario Canada
Renogami,

Quote:
also funding issues, can't see this funded on violator deposits, i think the money has to be coming from elsewhere


The money for campsite clean-up should be in place already, at least for the more popular parks... I've heard that in APP after the hugely popular and messy Labour Day weekend, maintenance crews are sent out to sanitize campsites after most the yahoo abuse is over. Maybe it's cheaper to do it this way than to have COs cracking down on violators (although there are reports out there of tickets and evictions being issued to offenders). The less popular parks will have fewer clean-up dollars available and so might end up being messier.

IIRC one of Doug Ford's campaign promises was to keep Ontario parks and natural areas clean, so maybe there is money still being made available for that.

One of the upsides of litter is that it can provide seasonal jobs and keeps people employed during the inevitable cleanups year after year... can't think of another upside besides that, except sometimes valuable objects may be forgotten along with cleaning up the trash... I've found an expensive jacket, a camera, a new spray can of Deep Woods Off, a lightweight aluminum lawn chair and a very large amount of rope.

_________________
><((((º>


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group