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PostPosted: April 18th, 2021, 1:00 pm 
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No hard feelings if you do. This could get political very quickly, I hope that we can keep cool heads. Here we go...

I found this news article interesting, as it talks about restrictions on outdoor activities. I, for one, listen to the actual experts in the field.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7765156/ontario-covid-19-restrictions-ford-david-fisman/amp/

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PostPosted: April 18th, 2021, 3:10 pm 
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It's a bit out of date. The Ontario government reversed the decision to give police random stop&question powers, and also the decision to close parks and playgrounds.

I'm not trying to get political about it, but let's at least be clear on the facts, which have changed since that article was published.

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PostPosted: April 18th, 2021, 4:58 pm 
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It's hard to keep up with the flipflopping!!

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PostPosted: April 19th, 2021, 6:22 pm 
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PacketFiend wrote:
It's a bit out of date. The Ontario government reversed the decision to give police random stop&question powers, and also the decision to close parks and playgrounds.

I'm not trying to get political about it, but let's at least be clear on the facts, which have changed since that article was published.


I know that. My main take-away from the article was this paragraph, which I believe is the most relevant part for us;

Quote:
Public health experts and epidemiologists have previously pointed to responsible outdoor recreation and gatherings as one of the last safe ways people can enjoy being in public settings during the pandemic.


Basically, don't feel guilty by getting out. Drive carefully, and stay safe on the water; the last thing that our hospitals need right now are extra patients. But getting out is not only fine, but good advice.

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PostPosted: April 19th, 2021, 6:28 pm 
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wotrock wrote:
It's hard to keep up with the flipflopping!!


Bureaucracy at work in New England. Now just who is going to do the asking. This violates Federal medical privacy laws. Do these air heads have no understanding of practical measures?
https://www.mychamplainvalley.com/news/ ... 20briefing.

You are right. We are marbles caught in a rock tumbler.


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PostPosted: April 20th, 2021, 6:12 am 
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You know the government bans and restricts activities not because they themselves are inherently dangerous or likely to spread disease, but because they are trying to force people to stay home by not giving them any options to do anything else.


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PostPosted: April 20th, 2021, 6:34 am 
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Scientists' predictions that things are about to get worse might still become a reality over the next several weeks... or the measures being taken might still work to reduce death and illness. Hard to predict with a virus that is actively mutating into variants with greater or lesser capability to spread disease.

When I got my vax shot at a pharmacy two weeks ago, there were hospital front-line workers there making appointments because they didn't get theirs at the hospital. Don't understand that...

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PostPosted: April 20th, 2021, 6:57 am 
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For hospitals south of the French rivers, a vaccine has been available even to the janitors since end of February so it's weird they would chose to do it at a Pharmacy which is most like the Astra vaccine when they can get the pfizer serum at the hospital.

Writing on the wall says it's going to get worse but most likely due to international flights, factories and industrial places of work, not due to fishing, camping, grocery shopping or going to a local park

I checked a random hospital for how many covid patients they have and Sunnybrook Health Center has 39 patients with covid and over 900 beds in the whole hospital.


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PostPosted: April 20th, 2021, 7:57 am 
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Dr. Bogoch was just discussing this very point on CBC. The restrictions to travel away from home is not a big ticket item but every bit helps in reducing the chance in spreading the variant from a high burden area to a low burden area. Stay-at-home orders do work. Most people here on this forum (99+%) are obviously very responsible but if everybody decided to take it upon themselves to ignore the orders (it could never happen to me attitude), we all might have to pay a higher price in the future. I have to ask: "What gives you the right?"


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PostPosted: April 20th, 2021, 8:08 am 
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newbman wrote:
For hospitals south of the French rivers, a vaccine has been available even to the janitors since end of February so it's weird they would chose to do it at a Pharmacy which is most like the Astra vaccine when they can get the pfizer serum at the hospital.

Writing on the wall says it's going to get worse but most likely due to international flights, factories and industrial places of work, not due to fishing, camping, grocery shopping or going to a local park

I checked a random hospital for how many covid patients they have and Sunnybrook Health Center has 39 patients with covid and over 900 beds in the whole hospital.



You are showing a lack of understanding of hospital capacity. Just because there are 900 beds does not mean they can all be devoted to Covid patients. Staffing , ventilators, heart lung bypass machines, supplies of medicines, isolation rooms enter into the equation too. It can take several medical staff to attend one covid patient where several patients can be cared for by one staff in other wards.

Apples and oranges.


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PostPosted: April 20th, 2021, 10:07 am 
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I have strong opinions about this.

Covid already had a low mortality rate, and with the majority of the most vulnerable now vaccinated, the effective mortality rate is even lower. Right now we have more new cases per day than ever before, but the mortality rate is still in the teens. While each of those death is sad, of course, and I certainly wouldn't be so statistically detached were one of my loved ones among them, the fact still is that for a province of 13 million, 10-20 people is not enough to justify the massive economic, physical and mental health damage being wrought by our covid response.

But the mortality is not the primary justification for the response. Rather, we are told that the reason is that we need to protect our health care system from being overwhelmed.

First off, our healthcare system has been overwhelmed for years. Despite the desperate rhetoric you hear these days about "total breakdown" and "bursting at the seams" , the truth is our hospitals have been well over capacity for a long time, and the "hallway medicine" they're holding up as a bogeyman now has been the norm for years already.

Note this CBC article: the majority of GTA hospitals prior to covid were at 95-100% capacity for most of the year prior to covid:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ ... -1.5420434

Obviously that problem has been years in the making, so we can't merely blame the current government.

And certainly I'm not trying to say that status quo is acceptable - it's really not. Circumstances should never have been allowed to get that bad even before covid.

I'm just saying that should stop breathlessly repeating high capacity statistics every day as if this is the first time our health care system has been over burdened.

And while our current government may not be to blame for the problem they inherited, I think I can certainly blame them for the problems today. They've had a year now to ramp up icu capacity. A year. That should have been more than enough time to build beds and train nurses. We built planes and trained pilots in less time than that in ww2. A full year in, we should no longer be talking about flattening the curve in order to protect the health care system. Rather, we should be talking about how our ramped up healthcare system is capable of stepping up and meeting the curve.

But because of that failure to build capacity in the last year, that's why we're stuck in lock down now. I have canoe reservations in June that were very hard to get this year. So help me if they get auto-cancelled because of the government's failure to increase hospital capacity!


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PostPosted: April 20th, 2021, 10:14 am 
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littleredcanoe wrote:
newbman wrote:
For hospitals south of the French rivers, a vaccine has been available even to the janitors since end of February so it's weird they would chose to do it at a Pharmacy which is most like the Astra vaccine when they can get the pfizer serum at the hospital.

Writing on the wall says it's going to get worse but most likely due to international flights, factories and industrial places of work, not due to fishing, camping, grocery shopping or going to a local park

I checked a random hospital for how many covid patients they have and Sunnybrook Health Center has 39 patients with covid and over 900 beds in the whole hospital.



You are showing a lack of understanding of hospital capacity. Just because there are 900 beds does not mean they can all be devoted to Covid patients. Staffing , ventilators, heart lung bypass machines, supplies of medicines, isolation rooms enter into the equation too. It can take several medical staff to attend one covid patient where several patients can be cared for by one staff in other wards.

Apples and oranges.


I know not all 900 beds are dedicated to Covid but 5th largest hospital in the country has only 39 patients. The Covid ICU and ER dedicated wings on various floors to covid patients have capacity for more. The field hospital in Toronto is opening soon which should help for more general visits but there is unused capacity and not the end of the world like the news is suggesting.


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PostPosted: April 20th, 2021, 1:07 pm 
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Is it possible to update or edit the post title so something meaningful such as?

COVID-19 restrictions on outdoor activities

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PostPosted: April 20th, 2021, 3:49 pm 
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And while our current government may not be to blame for the problem they inherited, I think I can certainly blame them for the problems today. They've had a year now to ramp up icu capacity. A year. That should have been more than enough time to build beds and train nurses. We built planes and trained pilots in less time than that in ww2. A full year in, we should no longer be talking about flattening the curve in order to protect the health care system. Rather, we should be talking about how our ramped up healthcare system is capable of stepping up and meeting the curve.


Exactly. We knew it was coming...and are we doing anything now to prepare for whatever the future will bring?


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PostPosted: April 20th, 2021, 5:19 pm 
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Flip-flopping by scientists is perfectly understandable, even expected, because science changes as new data and evidence is collected and evaluated. But flip-flopping by politicians, contrary to any current scientific assessment, is unacceptable.

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