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PostPosted: May 19th, 2018, 8:03 pm 
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Been poking away at this article for the last week and would appreciate any feedback especially any glowing inaccuracies

http://www.prospector16.com/p/fabrics-f ... thing.html


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PostPosted: May 20th, 2018, 2:25 am 
Prospector16 wrote:
Been poking away at this article for the last week and would appreciate any feedback especially any glowing inaccuracies

http://www.prospector16.com/p/fabrics-f ... thing.html

The only "glowing inaccuracy" I have found was about the absorbtion of water by Nylon (polyamide). The article says it "does not absorb water" while in fact it can absorb 10 times as much water as polyester fabric...
Also it is important to realize that how clothing performs not only depends on the material but also how it is made.

In that respect, I have written some about clothing on my website too, but unfortunately it is in the Dutch language and I am still not satisfied with the crude english version I tried to make from it. But for a forum it is probably ok?
So here it is:

Clothing can best be done in several layers, amount and type depending on the situation. While one layer can be lighter than several layers of the same thickness, with several different layers you can adapt more versatile to the actual insulation and (outward) moisture transport needed.
In general thicker is warmer, but some materials are better insulators and/or windproof for their thickness and/or weight than others, which is important to realize when weight matters, as when canoe tripping with portages.

Layering of clothes can be divided into to three kinds:

1. Base layer -- main function: thermal regulation through moisture transport
The base layer next to the skin, should be able to transport moisture away from your body, to prevent cooling down when your skin is wet. Thickness depends on how much insulation is needed: for very cold situations it may be useful to use a base layer that also has good insulating performance. Also important for underwear to work well, is to use as close a fit as possible/comfortable, as that provides the most efficient insulation. A loose fit insulates a lot less for its weight.

    Cotton dries very slow when wet. For very strenuous activities, where you sweat a lot, synthetics are probably the best choice for underwear. Cotton is only acceptable in situations when you are certain it will not get wet and/or cold.

    Polypropylene is very light, doesn't absorb moisture but does need another (wicking) layer above it for optimal performance. Possibly mesh (a.k.a. fishnet) underwear made from polypropylene may be the best in that respect?

    Polyester can be a good moisture transporter too, is reasonable light and a good insulator depending on thickness and construction. Polypropylene is relatively a bit warmer than polyester, but polyester is stronger. Polyester 'thermo' underwear like Lifa, Trevira 350 or CoolMax are for thermal regulation by providing fast moisture transport from the body to prevent (too much) cooling down. Others, like Thermastat, Thermolite, Polartec Dryskin, ProWool are for thermal regulation and insulation.

    Polyamide (Nylon) underwear is very strong and comfortable as underwear but can absorb a lot of moisture, so in my experience it works best in situations were you don't sweat much.

    Wool is good as underwear if you can tolerate the possible itching, but it is more suitable for 'normal' than strenuous activities. Advantages of wool are that it has a broader temperature range, possibly is a bit more windproof than many synthetics and warmer when wet. Downside is that good and soft wool is expensive, not as strong as synthetics, especially heavy when wet, dries slowly and needs to be washed and dried more carefully. Although it must be said that wool generally needs to be washed much less than synthetics. Most synthetics dry fast and wash quite easy, except acryl, that needs to be washed and dried with lower temperatures too, to preserve the limited elasticity of this material.

2. Middle layer -- main function: insulation
The middle layer is for insulation and can be of wool, acryl or polyester fleece, the amount depending on the isolation needed. Fleece, however, often lacks wind resistance even more so than wool or acryl, so for fleece to work well then you need to wear a good wind resistant outer layer. Several layers are more versatile than one thick one, as you can vary the amount of insulation when using different kind and amount of layers. Polyester fleece in several thicknesses and makes is relatively the lightest and strongest insulation material.

3. Outer layer -- main function: protection
The outer layer(s) is for protection against wind and moisture. It depends on your actual needs and activity what kind of outer layer is best. For some wind resistance is very important, for others a comfortable and breathable stretch material with abrasion resistance is important, and others need as much rain resistance as possible. For more strenuous activities it is better not to use a too much wind resistant layer, especially if you plan to wear a breathable rain coat over it. The breathable performance of the outer layer will diminish badly when you wear it over a very wind resistant layer.

Dirk Barends

https://sites.google.com/site/barendsnoot/kleding


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PostPosted: May 20th, 2018, 1:02 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback - I do allude to the fact that materials are not the only thing that counts but I should draw it out more clearly.

What is your reference for nylon absorbing water?

I guess any fabric takes on water within the spaces of the weave - do you mean that or right in the fibres?

I'll have to double check my reference as well.


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PostPosted: May 20th, 2018, 3:18 pm 
Prospector16 wrote:
[...]
What is your reference for nylon absorbing water?
I guess any fabric takes on water within the spaces of the weave - do you mean that or right in the fibres?

The material itself,
here the specs I have gathered through time
(unfortunately no source anymore that I could find quickly)
Percentage water-absorption at ±20 graden Celsius:
Wool 17%
Viscose 15%
Silk 11%
Cotton 8%
Aramide 7%
Polyamide 4.5%
Glassfiber 2%
Acryl 1.5%
Polyester 0.4%
Polypropylene 0.05%

But indeed the weave of a fabric can be a big difference:
the same fiber differently used can give another result,
like when using mesh weave with polypropylene as for example Brynje does.

Also, much of what I wrote about clothing is based on my own limited experience.
Personal experience is always true, but can be wrong at the same time because it is subjective...

Dirk Barends


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PostPosted: May 20th, 2018, 4:05 pm 
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Hmmm, if wool is 17% and cotton 8% I think these numbers are mostly irrelevant. There is a lot more at plan than water absorption.


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PostPosted: May 21st, 2018, 10:50 pm 
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Which Big Bill wool pants did you get? Regular wool or merino? Was the size/fit accurate compared to your usual sizing?

I converted to wool many years ago, first switching to a merino base layer after my polypro LIFA top got funked up royally. When spring temps warrant, I'll follow that with a Woolrivh wool plaid shirt and a Wooly Pully. I've picked up a couple of pairs of wool dress pants from Value village, but haven't really been satisfied with them, so these Big Bills really interest me.


Last edited by open_side_up on May 22nd, 2018, 6:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: May 22nd, 2018, 4:43 am 
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Interesting postings and I will follow. When considering materials used for clothing I think that it is reasonable in this day and age to also include in their evaluation the environmental effects they have from their fabrication through to their eventual disposal.

GG

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PostPosted: May 22nd, 2018, 6:42 am 
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Good point Gerald - I should mention something about that though I fear it is beyond my ability. So many angles! Have you ever talked to a vegan about wool?

Here are the Big Bill pants I got - and the fit was true to my regular fit - 36". If you have to wash them make sure to use the delicate cycle and air dry them. I accidentally did them on the regular cycle once and they shrunk a bit but the waist luckily rebounded because I put them on wet and wore them for a while.

https://www.gostwear.com/bill-merino-wo ... p-878.html


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PostPosted: May 22nd, 2018, 6:55 am 
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Location: Toronto Beach(es)
Tx P16. I have my eye on the plain merino hunting pants.


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PostPosted: June 12th, 2018, 4:01 pm 
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Prospector16 wrote:
Hmmm, if wool is 17% and cotton 8% I think these numbers are mostly irrelevant. There is a lot more at plan than water absorption.

These figures can be relevant depending on how you interpret them:
at least they indicate that polyamide does absorb water and more so than polyester. Probably this also why polyamide tents/tarps stretch more when wet than polyester tents/tarps, but for clothing this is less significant.

What these figures do indeed not tell you, is how a material performs as clothing because that depends on the exact properties of the material and the fabric it is used in.

Dirk Barends


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PostPosted: June 14th, 2018, 2:35 pm 
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Off the top of my head:


Cotton kills.

Acrylic is cheap and IMO not warm. Plus you really have to be aware of the mixes it can come in usually. I have had acrylic socks that have melted.

Polypropylene I want to say sucks. It doesn't pack well and if it catches a spark it will burn right through leaving jagged edges behind.

I love merino - comfy as cotton.

Love polyester

Also like nylon.

I don't feel cotton has any place in a campers wardrobe.

Oh and silk! Love how comfy silk is in bed. Great base layer for hot weather.

There's my poorly drawn out thoughts.

Go to again:
Merino
Polyester
Nylon
Silk

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PostPosted: June 14th, 2018, 2:39 pm 
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Should have mentioned I now almost always wear 100% thick icebreaker wool socks for wet socks. They insulate when wet, they provide some abrasion resistance, and they dry reasonably well over night without a flame. Expensive but so worth it!

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PostPosted: June 15th, 2018, 2:06 am 
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If you are going to 'play' with fire, the melting point of materials is indeed important, but then it is advised to stay away from all synthetics, and use wool, silk or cotton. Polyester, acryl and polyamide are too susceptible for that, although polyamide probably the least so.

For socks I too prefer wool (with some polyamide for durability) over acryl or polyester (fleece).
If I am sure they will get soaking wet all day, I prefer neoprene socks, of course.

Dirk Barends

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PostPosted: June 15th, 2018, 7:49 am 
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Cotton does NOT kill. The improper use of it does and weave is as important as the material My winter clothing outer shell is a tight twill woven cotton. Warm, windproof and to some extent water resistant. But its not raining when I wear it. It is cold
Cotton is a lifesaver in the hot boreal forest. It allows evaporative cooling. It is also a lifesaver in that you can dunk your hat and cool your head in the hot sun
Hyperthermia is just as dangerous as hypothermia.
Cotton has a very protective role in outdoor gear. Its funny.. All our predecessors wore cotton and wool And they had some good waterproofing tactics be it wax or whale oil.
These days modern campers are being fleeced. Literally
Wool does not have to get heavy. It depends on the denier of the wool ( how thick and numerous the plies) and how close knit the item is made. I have merino wool base layers that can be wrung out of water and be just barely heavier. They are instantly wearable and provide warmth,
Not all wool is itchy.. If it has had the barbs that allow felting removed it is non itchy unless you are allergic.. Barbed wool when felted is very soft and wind and yes...waterproof.. Its no accident that people in Iceland where I just was depend on felted outer wool from their sheep for wind and water resistance in mittens and hats. Icelandic wool is waterproof thats why the lopopayesa sweater is used for outdoor wear like riding and rounding up those sheep. ( its not felted and is from the inner wool layer..there are different wools on the same sheep)

Silk for me is clammy and chilly and I have jettisoned it in favor of wool.
Did you know wool can cool you? Iceland had a large selection of wool t shirts and yes wool underwear.. As in bras and mens jockey shorts.


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2018, 7:55 am 
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I agree, LRC. I always take some cotton for the hot days of summer. And, of course, it's quite comfortable to wear---always have a clean change of cotton in the vehicle for the trip home!

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