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PostPosted: August 16th, 2018, 11:24 am 
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I was going to comment on that lifeguard requirement - is that new since the incident last year? That would kill my program for sure.

We do have a good relationship with the Sea Scouts and they can certify us at little cost. If we need to we could go that route. A few weekends is a lot to ask of a Scout leader though, who is typically already donating 6 to 10 weekends a year. It can be tight. I know my wife has the patience of a saint with my Scouting, but she does get very frustrated because it without question has a negative impact on our family's ability to go camping. And just on our family in general.

Something I've said a lot over the years in my Scouting adventures is "too many lawyers, not enough Scouters". A lot of the decisions get made by people who have very little experience delivering a program. But I guess I'm happy to say that this is one area where the lawyers have not yet fully infiltrated. Knock on wood.


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PostPosted: August 21st, 2018, 1:53 pm 
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Just a couple comments P16.

1) You make a statement that "all modern r&d designs are assymetric". Seems misleading to me. The brand new Northstar Phoenix has symmetric rocker (it's a river boat) So does the brand new Savage River Illusion (it's a freestyle/river/creek boat). There are many others. The Colden Starfire is way hotter than the Swift P15. Competitive freestyle boats almost always have symmetric rocker. Also, boats with symmetric rocker are best for rivers with lots of current...they respond better than assymetric boats and they respond under every condition...whereas modern asymmetric boats perform beautifully under most normal conditions. But if I end up going backwards somewhere with scary current give me a symmetric boat. My Wildfire just sits comfortably and peacefully in standing waves almost tall enough to sink it. I'm actually a fan of assymetric boats but I think you are not representing symmetric boats properly.

2) Your section on boats lengths suggests that solos are all 14 feet or less. For anything but whitewater, 13 feet is a short solo...not very roomy. There are many cool solo designs around 14 feet...it's a handy, versatile length that arguably is still biased towards maneuverability (rivers vs lakes). By 15 feet you get versatile solos where many are comfy on rivers but all work well on lakes. By 16 feet most are cruising bullets like Wenonahs made to go straight and fast and cover distance, although there are still versatile boats in this length like the Swift Shearwater...comfy and roomy and good for bigger loads and bigger water.


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PostPosted: August 21st, 2018, 3:18 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback (and for dragging this thread back on topic :-)) - I will see what I can incorporate.


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PostPosted: August 21st, 2018, 4:16 pm 
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daypaddler wrote:
[...] Also, boats with symmetric rocker are best for rivers with lots of current...they respond better than assymetric boats and they respond under every condition...whereas modern asymmetric boats perform beautifully under most normal conditions. But if I end up going backwards somewhere with scary current give me a symmetric boat. My Wildfire just sits comfortably and peacefully in standing waves almost tall enough to sink it. I'm actually a fan of assymetric boats but I think you are not representing symmetric boats properly. [...]

Symmetry is not only about rocker but can also be other things like widest beam not being in the middle and such. In that respect the WildFire that you mention is not symmetrical, because it is higher in the bow than in the stern...

Also I have owned one quite asymmetrical touring canoe that -- also to my surprise -- did quite well going backwards in rapids, at least not worse than the symmetrical ones that I have used in comparable conditions.
So if "boats with symmetric rocker are best for rivers with lots of current" is true, I don't know, also because I think several real whitewater canoe designs are asymmetrical, and have more rocker in the stern than the bow?

From what I have learned so far, the main problem with asymmetrical touring canoe designs is that it is difficult to design a good one, and anything extreme (and I learned extreme is when you can easily see a design is asymmetrical) will give extreme results.

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PostPosted: August 21st, 2018, 6:36 pm 
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I think the common problem with asymmetrical touring boats is the differentiated rocker. Usually there is more rocker in the bow than the stern, which is good for general flatwater paddling. However, if the boat is stern heavy, back ferries can become problematic, as the stern will dig in and be difficult to turn. Same thing when eddying out, the stern can get sticky. Usually solved by not having the stern heavy.


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PostPosted: August 21st, 2018, 7:44 pm 
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Another $.02 CDN on asymmetry. As noted here canoes may have different aspects that are not symmetrical. Swede Form designs have a narrow entry line which is widest a bit astern of the center of the canoe. The sheer line might not be uniform, the bow often rises higher than the stern. Rocker may be more at the bow than the stern but a canoe might have compound rocker where the center portion doesn't have any rocker but rocker shows up in the bow and stern.

Personally, I don't like asymmetrical canoes any time I want to paddle backwards and as Rob noted that can cause some real problems in white water. I didn't like the Dumoine when it came out and when teaching WW courses it was easy to see that the differential rocker was causing some problems for students using that model, but I've know some good white water paddlers that loved that boat. Guess its what you get used to.

Many white water solo boats had asymmetrical rocker, but those canoes are so prone to turning that a bit of drag at the stern helps without having any real impact on paddling backwards.


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PostPosted: August 22nd, 2018, 7:42 am 
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I must say that I find it a little strange that when it comes to asymmetry, the comments usually are that people don't like less rocker in the stern than in the bow for paddling backwards. While unless extreme, the remedy for that can just be trimming more bow heavy than in a symmetrical rockered design?
And after all, symmetrical designs when paddled with the usual stern heavy trim just have this so called differential rocker sort of 'built-in'?

Personally I have more bad experiences with strong asymmetrical hulls with a long 'V' shape forward fairing into a shallow arch shape aft, when paddling in following waves on open water -- especially with a (perhaps too?) heavy load.

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PostPosted: August 22nd, 2018, 12:53 pm 
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Dirk Barends wrote:
I must say that I find it a little strange that when it comes to asymmetry, the comments usually are that people don't like less rocker in the stern than in the bow for paddling backwards.
Dirk Barends


FWIW Dirk... the typical traditional symmetrical canoe is normally trimmed stern heavy when paddling solo because the center thwart or yoke means you can't position yourself mid ship. Adjusting trim from that position means you just have to lean a bit forward of the center thwart/yoke to shift the weight and doing so has a more pronounced effect than if you tried the same thing in an asymmetrical hull. If you want to paddle a tandem asymmetrical canoe solo that hasn't been outfitted with a kneeling thwart you either have to kneel without support behind the center thwart/yoke or turn around like a traditional canoe and use the bow as the stern. Neither of those options are as easy as doing the same thing in a symmetrical canoe but the issues can be overcome with effort.

I've paddled a lot of asymmetrical canoes solo, both tandem canoes and ones designed as solos. There are some that were fairly easy to control paddling in reverse but there were a few I've paddled that were very unresponsive and no amount of transfer of weight would bring any joy when trying to be graceful moving it around in anything but a straight line.

The biggest problem I've noted in asymmetrical design is when its used in a tandem canoe designed for river tripping. As Rob noted, the current differential when trying to do a back ferry or some eddy situations grabs the stern of the canoe dramatically and I've seen a lot of folks dump because they weren't ready for that. Granted, that's going to happen more to novice or less experienced paddlers but I've had participants on moving water courses succeed when I get them to switch to a symmetrical canoe when they were failing in their asymmetrical one. Once the paddlers get a good "feel" for what the water does most can figure it out and manage in their asymmetrical design but its something I've learned to be prepared for when teaching moving water courses.

I just go back to the way canoes evolved by the indigenous people in Canada. The birch bark canoes didn't have seats, that was introduced when European builders started making them. The birch bark canoes were multi purpose and where and how they were paddled was based on the use and load they were being put to. They didn't have a "bow" or "stern". That made them very versatile and you won't find asymmetrical designs in traditional canoes. There was a lot of variety in the regional designs in the indigenous canoes made across Canada and I'm confident they would have had asymmetrical ones if they'd have had a practical application but its telling in my mind you don't see that. The goal of an asymmetrical canoe is to improve tracking and hopefully to make the canoe go faster going forward with less effort required to steer it. But that's a design compromise, you trade off the performance for the versatility.

My $.02 CDN


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PostPosted: August 22nd, 2018, 2:56 pm 
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"trim" is a term I don't have on my 101 yet :-)


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PostPosted: August 22nd, 2018, 6:25 pm 
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Fun discussion. My comments around symmetry were indeed too general. You're going to have to sort it all out P16.


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PostPosted: August 23rd, 2018, 3:10 am 
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Rolf Kraiker wrote:
[...] I just go back to the way canoes evolved by the indigenous people in Canada. The birch bark canoes didn't have seats, that was introduced when European builders started making them.

Yes, I always wondered how they did without seats.

My first solo canoe (MRC Pearl) came without a seat because it was meant to be paddled with a pedestal. But since the pedestal wasn’t available, I had to put a fixed seat in it. Before I did that, I paddled it several times without a seat at all, to see if I could do without and to find out what the best location would be for a seat. And although the seat was much more comfortable paddling for me, the lack of trim options was indeed limiting. A sliding seat, as I now have in my present solo canoe, would have been much better, because that makes paddling my present solo canoe a whole lot easier.

Quote:
That made them very versatile and you won't find asymmetrical designs in traditional canoes. There was a lot of variety in the regional designs in the indigenous canoes made across Canada and I'm confident they would have had asymmetrical ones if they'd have had a practical application but its telling in my mind you don't see that.

So it seems, and I always wondered about that too, as other 'traditional' canoes, like those from the Haida and Tlingit, and umiaks and kayaks often are asymmetrical.

Quote:
The goal of an asymmetrical canoe is to improve tracking and hopefully to make the canoe go faster going forward with less effort required to steer it. But that's a design compromise, you trade off the performance for the versatility.

What the goal of an asymmetrical canoe design is, is up to the designer -- whether he succeeds or not...
It can be better tracking or manoeuvrability, more speed, easier paddling (forward), less pitching in waves (resulting in a dryer canoe), et cetera. The trade off is indeed versatility, but so was putting seats into a canoe -- reason why many FreeStylers now have abandoned them, as are the standup paddlers in a way ;)

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PostPosted: August 23rd, 2018, 3:43 am 
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daypaddler wrote:
Fun discussion. My comments around symmetry were indeed too general. You're going to have to sort it all out P16.

Yeah, symmetry was one of the longest discussions here:
http://www.myccr.com/phpbbforum/viewtop ... 49&t=32116

:D

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PostPosted: August 23rd, 2018, 8:52 am 
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Dirk... regarding the lack of seating in birch bark canoes while the canvas covered cedar and plank canoes that followed had seats is fairly simple to explain. European's were accustomed to sitting in chairs, the indigenous people of "canoe country" in Canada didn't have chairs. When not standing, they spent more time squatting or kneeling from childhood so it was natural for them to be comfortable in a canoe that didn't have seats in a fixed location.

When I was younger, I spent a lot of time around the house on my knees not sitting in chairs just so I could spend more time in that position in a canoe. Now that I'm in my 60s I have to unbend my knees for a bit before trying to get out of the canoe after paddling it that way.

Good point about asymmetrical kayaks, I was just thinking of the birch bark canoes made by the indigenous people in canoe country around here.


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PostPosted: August 23rd, 2018, 8:54 am 
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Quote:
- reason why many FreeStylers now have abandoned them, as are the standup paddlers in a way ;)


Not true in the USA. One of the requirements for competition is the canoe be outfitted for touring and not have all its seats removed nor thwarts.

After all FS was an evolution of touring tripping technique


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PostPosted: August 23rd, 2018, 9:27 am 
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littleredcanoe wrote:
Quote:
- reason why many FreeStylers now have abandoned them, as are the standup paddlers in a way ;)


Not true in the USA. One of the requirements for competition is the canoe be outfitted for touring and not have all its seats removed nor thwarts.

After all FS was an evolution of touring tripping technique

I didn't know about that, and although I do have my concerns about the moving around in the canoe for manoeuvring too, for interpretive FreeStyle like Karin Knight did, such a rule seems quite limiting?

Dirk Barends

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