It is currently March 19th, 2024, 6:44 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 137 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: September 11th, 2021, 3:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: June 28th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 2900
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
I’m as guilty as anyone at continuing this thread, but as opinions and feeling creep into possible politics the potential for divisiveness becomes threatening to harmony on this board.

I have a group trip coming up in a couple weeks, with paddling friends I haven’t seen in the longest-ever-in-decades two Covid plague years. I have dearly missed their company, but at least half of them are 180 degrees opposite my political or social beliefs.

This is a group that has one special thing in common, a love of canoeing. I relish the times and tales and laughter amongst them, and refuse to lose them for current events disagreements. I’m not changing their mind, they’re not changing mine, we have plenty of trip tales to tell, canoes to compare and gear to discuss; we just don’t go there.

ImagePC180149 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Let’s let this go and talk about paddling canoes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 11th, 2021, 3:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: February 28th, 2018, 10:54 am
Posts: 139
Location: SW Quebec
Mike McCrea wrote:

Let’s let this go and talk about paddling canoes.


Right on, Mike. Double or single blade?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 11th, 2021, 4:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: April 6th, 2007, 8:42 pm
Posts: 453
The thread should go when it's run out of steam, or when an administrator deems it violates guidelines, not because we have some deep need to maintain a good-natured appearance of harmony. Mike, why make it seem bothersome or uncool to explore an issue that continues to have such a huge impact on our lives, including our paddling lives: trips cancelled, backcountry closures, etc. I do get that harmony has lots to recommend it. In fact, I seek it, especially in the outdoors. I get the "no-politics-around-here" ethos that permeates much of the world of polite social gatherings. I get that "politics" (in inverted commas because that word means so many different things to so many different people) reeks of the fun-spoiler, and I don't like it any more than you when a discussion spirals into ugliness or stupidity. You're probably better attuned than I to noticing approaching storm fronts. What I've appreciated in this thread is that it explores several issues from various perspectives and does so, for the most part, politely and respectfully. I sensed it was healthy that many people, whom I suspect issue from several different generations, discussed a canoe-related issue that was relevant to them. There are other threads going on this and other forums that deal with plenty of other topics. This topic just seems to have been of particular interest to people, perhaps because of its relevance. When it's not interesting, and maybe it has indeed already run its course, then people will migrate to other threads and/or start new ones.
On another point, I've always been a little in awe of those who can happily go tripping and palling around with individuals whose political views expressed elsewhere in their world are in direct opposition to one's own. As we roasted wienies together over the cosy campfire I'd be troubled by the thought that he's on the record of being gung-ho about supporting policies that show deep disregard for for my sons, my spouse, my friends and those I love. I know, be a good sport, Martin, and when the good ol' boy isn't paying attention, just shove his hotdog into the flames!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 11th, 2021, 6:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: December 2nd, 2003, 8:32 pm
Posts: 39
Location: Sault Ste. Marie, On
I've been following this since page 1 and have to ask how far it would have gone if Souris had only offered jobs to vaccinated people. I'm guessing nowhere. I'm vaccinated but thoroughly disagree on trying to trying to push my views on personal health on others.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 11th, 2021, 6:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 11th, 2002, 7:00 pm
Posts: 6128
Location: Sunny Wasaga Beach
"Meanwhile, WTIP contacted numerous canoe outfitters in Cook County this week, including along the Gunflint Trail, to hear their reaction to the situation. All of the outfitters along the Trail said they would not be ordering new canoes from Souris River for the 2022 season, though some said they previously had no plans to order from the Atikokan-based company due to orders with other canoe manufacturers."

https://www.wtip.org/boundary-waters-co ... s%E2%80%99

It will be intersting to see how CDN outfitters react

_________________

Old canoeists never die---they just smell that way.



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 12th, 2021, 7:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: December 19th, 2006, 8:47 pm
Posts: 9295
https://granitegrok.com/blog/2021/09/pl ... r-covid-19

Its kind of amusing. The company that has suicide at heart. Now we watch the employee turnover as they get sick.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 12th, 2021, 8:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 27th, 2002, 7:00 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Geraldton, Ontario Can
I'm going a bit into politics here, but it is to show what these people usually think.

On a few other sites I'm on the PPC types are in the majority. Their representation ranges from sensible people who think mandatory vaccines are an overstep of government power, to the 5G crowd who believe that magnetic particles are included in the vaccines so the government can exert mind control on us. The latter crowd were almost 100 percent QAnon followers, and usually participate in every Conspiracy theory out there.

When trying to distinguish which end of the conspiracy spectrum people fall into, the use of The Nuremberg Code clearly places them at the Nutjob end of the spectrum. I haven't come across someone using the Nuremburg code who hasn't also believed the following:
1. Vaccines actually shed spike proteins and are the cause of increasing cases.
2. Vaccines cause variants
3. The magnetic particles in the vaccines will be activated by 5G, causing us to follow all government directives.
4. Everyone who has taken the vaccine has 15 months left to live.
5. The "Clot Shot" is causing millions of people to die daily.
6. The people who become part of the anti-vax movement are heroic crusaders.
7. Many other even crazier theories.

These are the people showing up at political rallies and throwing gravel at the Prime Minister. They also bring their kids along to witness them chanting the basest obscenities at the opposing political parties. I call them the "Free-dumbs", because that is their buzz word that justifies most of their silliness.

I am pretty certain that the Souris River management falls into this crowd. Their use of the Nuremburg code is the give away. I own one SR canoe, I won't be buying another, but that's just because I think there are better canoes out there in the same price range. However, I wouldn't let their whacky ways interfere with purchasing a canoe that I really felt I needed.

Unless- when one scratches the surface of these people, there are often unmentioned aspects which makes them really repugnant. Anti-immigration and racism often go hand in hand. In my small town, there is a very healthy group of PPC supporters. They are mostly composed of born agains who had serious drug or alcohol problems, but there are also regular reputable citizens.

These people will mostly go away after the election, when the PPC gets squashed. Of course, then we will have our own "Stop the Steal" movement.

However, I don't want them to go out of business because they have a nutjob at the helm. There are very few homegrown businesses in Northern Ontario. I'm sure not all of their employees adhere to the silliness either. Hopefully, things will settle down in a year or so and people can become somewhat normal again.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 12th, 2021, 11:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: April 14th, 2018, 7:19 pm
Posts: 597
martin2007 wrote:
When reading your last post, Remogami, I sensed we were being fast-forwarded to some sort of crime tribunal. Commission of the act had been more-or-less determined and acknowledged by attorneys on both sides, but motivation and intent were still being examined in order to arrive at a fair and just sentence. What I like about your post is that even though you're personally committed to a particular vaccine stance you're still seeking to deconstruct the complex forces that are at play within someone who holds an opposing view. I respect your desire to dive deep and to seek answers to questions of motivation and intent


lol your first statement made me laugh. thanks martin, i appreciate your (obviously) careful consideration of my post, which, i'm sure, would be ridden off as some kind of 'SR lover in disguise' by some, even perhaps by myself, if i had seen it under another's name, on another day lol. no, i wouldn't, but you know what i mean. so i appreciate your response,


martin2007 wrote:
Many of us, however, will consider a person's tendency to dive deep something of a luxury, or even worse: offensive. A conspicuous lack of self-righteous zeal: that readiness to pile on when summoned, to fight dirty. A lack of zeal probably gets in the way of getting things done during an emergency. Who wants complexity when simplicity requires much less work and is easier and less costly to apply? Most of us have limited patience, not to mention the cognitive capacity, much less the empathy, to pursue a better understanding of an adversary's motivation and intent.


i like the way you see things. i agree with your points here. many forces at play, against the idea that my post has much or any utility. not to say my post is right, it can also be very wrong. but you've got my intent right, that's for sure. the good thing i guess, is that the post can be ignored or read according to which kind of person falls upon it.

which ties into your other post, i agree, that we should not be thinking 'we should' stop such discussions. i mean, obviously there are times to cut them (mod determined, etc), whether for irrelevance or violating policy etc, but outside of that, no big deal.

it would only be a loss, for as you say, there clearly already exists interest (so why cut it?). that point becomes even stronger, when we consider that this entire topic, as beefy and as diverse as it is, overflowing boil, is yet (still) packaged in this 'single tiny thread instance', squeezed between hundreds more.

it's not exactly an advertisement banner,


martin2007 wrote:
Again, what I liked in your discussion was the desire to get the facts right, and to not borrow from the abundant supply of ready-made and incorrect assumptions that most of us are happy to embrace simply because they're a shortcut to getting what we've sought all along: the validation of "we're right, they're wrong, another beer, please!"


unfortunately for me i have to ask for all my beer before i approach the topic. because that "another" won't come around lol

which could explain things, some may think :)
cheers,


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 12th, 2021, 11:28 am 
Offline

Joined: June 28th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 2900
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
Martin, a reasonable response. I wasn’t trying to make participation in that thread bothersome or uncool, and the varying perspectives were worthy of discussion. But some name calling had commenced, and I have seen paddling boards (plural) torn asunder by ill feelings even outside of politics or social issues.

martin2007 wrote:
I've always been a little in awe of those who can happily go tripping and palling around with individuals whose political views expressed elsewhere in their world are in direct opposition to one's own.


Don’t be. My ability to trip and camp with companions holding views with which I disagree has explanations beyond “we don’t talk politics”. That ugly head has arisen on rare occasion, and when it has some folks find things distant that need their attention. But 90% of the time we don’t go there, as a matter of courtesy among friends.

It helps that I know their backgrounds, where and how they were raised, and what they do for a living. Some had hardscrabble rural upbringings, some stayed living rural or in dying towns. Three or four of them work in resource extraction industries; gas, oil and timber. They see regulations and environmental policies through the opaque view of their (and their friends/families/communities) wallets.

If I were walking a mile in their steel toed work boots?????

Politics and backgrounds aside they are, in person, some of the kindest, most generous and highly skilled people I know, full-life-lived country boys often are, and I trust them to save my ass or have my back when needed. Beyond that, when we are together we all laugh ‘til our cheeks hurt, and there is too little of that in the world.

I have never shoved their hot dog into the fire. Late at night I did hammer a large stake in the ground under one’s chair and attach one leg using a 100lb zip tie. I had even spray painted the Zip-tie black.

The funniest part was not watching his WFT struggles; it was watching the other half dozen guys and gals around the fire trying to keep it together when he later stood up to move his chair. Laurie had started inexplicably giggling as soon as he returned and sat down, almost burst a seam when he stood up, but she had already had a weird night involving a feathered boa (the stripper kind, not the snake).

And you wondered why that crew laughs ‘til their cheeks hurt.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 12th, 2021, 11:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: April 14th, 2018, 7:19 pm
Posts: 597
Mike McCrea wrote:
Let’s let this go and talk about paddling canoes.


lol even better,

let's plan a 3 day with the Robinsons and in their boats, supplied by them free,
i'll bet we all come out on better terms,

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 12th, 2021, 12:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: April 6th, 2007, 8:42 pm
Posts: 453
As my dear sweet self-effacing great great uncle would have said__ yes, sadly, he ended it all back in 1967__ as he was wont to say on those rare occasions when the group deigned pass him the large conch shell, and it was, finally, his turn to offer an opinion:

"I say there, dear chaps, a picture is worth a lot of f******* words!!"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 12th, 2021, 2:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: June 28th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 2900
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
remogami wrote:
let's plan a 3 day with the Robinsons and in their boats, supplied by them free,
i'll bet we all come out on better terms


I’ll bet we would. Wilderness can have a way of smoothing out rough edges.

Are those gentleman in the photo about to demonstrate tandem Freestyle in a Grumman? I would attend, or watch video of that.

In further confession the Quetico 16 dimensions hits my sweet spot as a solo-ized big boy tripper. If someone can’t bear to own one I’ll take it off your hands, and promise to strip off all the letters and logos.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 12th, 2021, 2:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: December 19th, 2006, 8:47 pm
Posts: 9295
Mike McCrea wrote:


Are those gentleman in the photo about to demonstrate tandem Freestyle in a Grumman? I would attend, or watch video of that.



You show up at a clinic with a Grumman and ye shall use the Grumman. It has been done. However PFD's are worn when not in exhibition ( and those gents clearly are)

The difference in beliefs can be tolerated when such beliefs are not rubbed in anyone's face. I am leery that a Robinson wilderness trip would have that quality.

I work with people now in a food bank..some 50 or so and we have various politics. We know that to have personal beliefs is a right and we know that with that right comes the responsibility not to incense others. Together we can get the job done. Apart and it is impossible.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 12th, 2021, 7:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: October 6th, 2005, 8:02 am
Posts: 634
Location: a bit south ofWinnipeg
Picked up an h20 Outfitter 16 yesterday. Very similar in design to the Q16. Not paddled it yet. But initial impressions are good build quality, better than SR. Foam core, lots of Kevlar partials and well finished. We have the Brute Force layup in epoxy Kevlar.

_________________
http://www.canoepaddler.net


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 13th, 2021, 7:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: December 29th, 2002, 7:00 pm
Posts: 6330
Location: Bancroft, Ontario Canada
Today should be interesting, anti-vaxx demonstrations across the nation being planned at hospitals that in the past have caused access problems. Maybe somebody will bring a Souris River canoe to show support.



https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/0 ... onday.html

_________________
><((((º>


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 137 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group