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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 2nd, 2022, 8:54 am 
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ya you're right the velcro is not the way to go for the gomboy attachment.
should be a pouch.
the pouch would be pretty much as wide as the case
(to easily fit the gomboy+its own case into the pouch).
pouch can be placed approx here (blue)
what you think would be good closure over pouch opening?
maybe the pouch (blue) can increase in height so it covers more of gomboy
then flap with small buckle (above gomboy) drapes over gomboy then clips to top pouch.
that seems pretty good.

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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 2nd, 2022, 12:54 pm 
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Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
remogami wrote:
what you think would be good closure over pouch opening?


I see there is Velco on the flap closure of the larger saw case, so I guess Velcro would do.

I am admittedly anti-Velcro, and would prefer a snap closure between flap and pouch, for simplicity of operation, and so that the flap wasn’t Velcro closed when the Gomboy pouch was empty; just lift un-snapped (and un-Velcroed) flap and slip the Gomboy case inside the pouch. Gravity alone should hold the flap closed over the empty pouch when the Gomboy is in use.

The less necessary action the better. One handed extraction and insertion would suit me fine, especially if the stand-alone Gomboy pouch was occasionally belt worn.

Comical aside on simplicity. A friend had very expensive Pella French doors installed. To lock/unlock them there is an over-engineered sequence; lift handle, turn the key left, lower handle, turn the key right. She hasn’t been able to reliably lock her house in ten years. Still takes me multiple attempts.

I have no experience with Velcro and saw dust. Velcro and spider webs, dead insects, egg sacks, loose threads and hairs (now mostly beard, not head), oak catkins and other leaf litter yes. Accumulated detritus has proven detrimental to Velcro over time and exposure, and is difficult to clean out.

Dual Lock is a fastener improvement for many outdoors applications. This was a crud accumulation and cleaning experiment, using black Dual Lock on the left and white Velcro on the right.

ImagePB090050 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The mushroom headed Dual Lock picked up far less debris than the hook & loop Velcro, and was much easier clean.

Dual lock, once mushroom fastened - and it audibly snaps in place - is damn tenacious. Two one inch squares mushroomed together will support 10lbs of pull. That was using the most tenacious High Profile Dual Lock. There is a less tenacious “low profile” variety of Dual Lock for folks with weak trigger fingers.

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/dual-lock-r ... teners-us/

I *think* 3M makes Dual Lock in a sewable, non-adhesive backed variety.

I’d probably still rather to have a simple, also audible/tactile, snap fastener on the flaps.


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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 2nd, 2022, 6:22 pm 
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Location: a bit south ofWinnipeg
A magnetic closure would likely be best. Fidlock are the most well known though others are available.
Having had to clear dog hair from our dogs pfd on more than one occasion I have become fairly good at it. A needle helps to clear the hooks. I wonder whether pressing duct tape onto the patch would work.
The nice thing, and bad thing about Velcro is that closes without user intervention.

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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 2nd, 2022, 7:06 pm 
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chris randall wrote:
The nice thing, and bad thing about Velcro is that closes without user intervention.
So do magnets :lol:

I love the magnetic closure idea. Sufficiently powerful rare earth magnets would be perfect for this application.

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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 3rd, 2022, 12:47 am 
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"The less necessary action the better. One handed extraction and insertion would suit me fine, especially if the stand-alone Gomboy pouch was occasionally belt worn."

i agree. i don't know how velcro holds up to saw dust but i'd bet that A, it take a long long time for saw dust to accumulate in there to the point of issue, and B, if it accumulates, it is easier removed than the stuff we normally see tangled up in there.

so in my mind velcro is one top option. alright, so options are:

-velcro
-neodymium magnet
-snap button
-lace (like on frost river bags)


of the 4,
which requires the least time/simplest action with one hand?

opening:
-velcro, possible issue. it's strong. can lift up whole sheath with bow saw inside (if sheath not secured).
-snap button, no issue. nice click/pop effect.
-magnet, no issue (just get right strength neo), nice click/pop effect.
-lace, no issue (a tug on slip knot and good).

closing:
-velcro, no issue (auto close)
-button, is issue, back end slips around as you push front into it, especially with gomboy behind it, with its contours.
-magnet, no issue (auto close)
-lace, is issue, difficult to tie one-handed

ease of returning saw to pouch:
-velcro (gotta tear it open it again)
-snap (ready as is)
-magnet (gotta pull it off again)
-lace (ready as is)

so,
lace is gone, as virtually no close option (one handed).
it's between: magnet, snap, velcro.
i'd say it's between velcro and magnet because of the close-snap issue.

if you think i am mistaken about the close-snap issue, tell me,
because i do like snaps
any other ideas for closing (one handed)? seems none that would be real candidates.

mushroom lock thing is neat. makes sense that it accumulates less junk.
because the hook velcro is basically a trap, while mushroom a ledge,
it's like fish jumping into bucket vs. onto a bucket. more fish flop back to river in latter case.
and as for ease of cleaning it out, same advantage, just now we're initiating the flops.

i'd be down for the mushroom stuff. wont get brittle in uv or anything?
i think i prefer magnet most because it's so tidy and clean in operation and it gives a 'click' or 'thump'.
does this mushroom stuff require you to Push to get it closed?


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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 3rd, 2022, 8:29 am 
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Posts: 2467
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
remogami wrote:
alright, so options are:
-velcro
-neodymium magnet
-snap button
-lace (like on frost river bags)[/size]

of the 4, which requires the least time/simplest action with one hand?
i think i prefer magnet most because it's so tidy and clean in operation and it gives a 'click' or 'thump'.
does this mushroom stuff require you to Push to get it closed?


The Dual Lock does require a hard push to seat the mushroom heads together, and a bit of force to separate them.

I hadn’t considered a magnet, which among the above choices seems the easiest and cleanest option.


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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 3rd, 2022, 9:32 pm 
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mushroom requiring force to close (and open) is to me a con,
also benefit in that the flap wont lock shut upon extracting saw (like a snap).
other advantage of mushroom is that it collects less junk (as you noted),
but gut tells me velcro hooks would fair alright against saw dust.
it seems, if accumulated to an issue, we could even soak it, break down bits to loose mush.

so i think i'm going to go with velcro hooks over mushrooms.
literally the flap just falls over and it's shut. that's sweet feature (no losing saw, etc). minor annoyance to pull flap up when returning saw (magnet has same annoyance).

what i'm thinking for magnet, is coin shape (inch diameter),
pushed into tight sewn square pocket on flap, then sewn sealed. then on pouch another same shape, metal (perhaps magnet again), in its own tight square pocket.
low bulk/low weight magnetic solution. compared to a 'pre built' magnetic locking mechanism that we attach to sheath.

what will i do?
i'll keep the sheaths i have as is (sleek, straightforward, no belly on them, easy slide in/out pack, does the intended job perfectly).
i will request 2 more sheaths piggyback style for trips where im taking gomboy.
(pocketboys sit deep and comfortable in my pocket).

so, magnet or velcro, on those 2 new sheaths?
if others want to do this as well (and if chris is ok with that), im up for either.
you/others can decide. we could order a pack of neodymium magnets.
both flaps (bow saw flap + gomboy flap) can be magnet-locking.
but if no one else wants in on this, i think im going to 'stick to' velcro.
(not going to order a pack of magnets just for myself).

i see magnet style as the 'Swift' of saw sheaths, and velcro as the 'Nova Craft'.
i do like them both.
do you have the bob dustrude saw?


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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 4th, 2022, 7:37 am 
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Location: a bit south ofWinnipeg
Princess Auto has them. Very strong!
It may be possible to use the daisy chain loops on the back of these sheaths to add some straps to attach a pouch on the front

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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 4th, 2022, 8:57 am 
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Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
This is why I so enjoy discussions of gear adaptations and options. Just “talking it out”, weighing the various pros and cons, helps form an opinion.

I had never considered magnets as a closure option. I presume that magnet would covered, sewn into the sheath or flap, with another magnet (or metal plate) similarly sewn in place for the attraction. That seems a very clean, nothing visible solution.


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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 4th, 2022, 4:41 pm 
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Posts: 34
Further to talking out the issue; I would vote for a light metal plate rather than another magnet. Those magnets are powerful and would be frustrating to separate. Might even consider lighter magnets with a decent surface area, there are a variety available for bag closures at sewing shops.

MOLLE style straps or daisy chain on the main case would allow for removal of the Gomboy sheath and its use separately.

I have been trying to figure out a sling to carry the opened saw between wood sources...hands full of wood make it harder to carry a saw. Most likely will rejig the shoulder strap on the main sheath. Really like the metal "g" hooks.

I built my sheath with the flap to accommodate the head a small axe (rethinking that given the weight, risk...but it is my grandfather's axe, hard to leave it behind) and the channel for the handle. Channel also works for my small folding saw with just a tie right now to hold it in place, more fiddly than a flap with magnet/velcro/dual loc but certainly a simple retrofit.


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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 5th, 2022, 7:40 am 
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really nice sheath there carpenter, looks excellent.
i like the sling too. that has given me the idea to attach a sling to my loops on the back of sheath.

ya the neo magnets are strong but a good thing is that the force drops rapidly as separation increases ever slightly.
by default there will be 2 layers of sheath-cloth separating magnet from attract point. layers (or folds) can be added, to achieve comfortable force magnitude.

or other material, like a small piece of hard sheet plastic, inserted along with magnet.
enabling not having to get precisely the right strength magnet, since how its implemented effectively changes its strength.

i'd bet that 1/8 thick magnet is a perfect size to go with.
as you noted, a good surface area ideal. that way the flap does not need to 'search around' to find its locking position.
(the flap is not on a hinge, so it may angle right or left once folded right over).

this actually is one other benefit of velcro.
the velcro doesn't care which angle the flap is at. because the velcro spans across the whole sheath width (at least, in the way chris designed it).

purses which have magnet closing mechanisms are rigid enough that they open/close as if they were on a hinge, ensuring the magnets align every time.


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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 5th, 2022, 9:09 am 
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another idea, on accommodating 21" and 24" saws, boreal, bob's, etc.
here the boreal21 is fully inserted and flap snuggly folded over


Image
Image


note the inch of velcro excess.
this inch can be increased from 1 to 3, now fitting (snug) whichever saw.

on the observation, that this extra 3" of flap will overlap gomboy flap.
this is true.
but in practice, i don't think that would affect gomboy retrievals or returns.

it would just make the gomboy flap want to fall back down after being opened,
and only when using a 21" saw.


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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 5th, 2022, 10:09 am 
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Joined: June 28th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 2467
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
remogami wrote:
another idea, on accommodating 21" and 24" saws, boreal, bob's, etc.
here the boreal21 is fully inserted and flap snuggly folded over
note the inch of velcro excess.
this inch can be increased from 1 to 3, now fitting (snug) whichever saw.


As much as I hate to say it, Velcro wins in that application. With the Velcro aligned horizontally on the saw sheath and vertically on the flap, as in Chris’ design the 1st post photos in this thread, there could be enough “slop” designed in the system to accommodate different length saws.

I guess that could be accomplished with a small magnet and long metal plate but, dang it, Velcro is looking better all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 9th, 2022, 10:28 pm 
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ya metal plate is good idea (but adds weight maybe if durable enough?), like chris' full-width velcro. so are you interested in one of these and if so, magnet system?
we could also test velcro longevity with a spare piece of it, intentionally buried/pressed into a mound of sawdust and wood chip,


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 Post subject: Re: Perfect Saw Sheath
PostPosted: September 10th, 2022, 6:38 am 
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Posts: 2467
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
remogami wrote:
so are you interested in one of these and if so, magnet system?
we could also test velcro longevity with a spare piece of it, intentionally buried/pressed into a mound of sawdust and wood chip,


About the metal plate for the magnet, I wonder if that could be a spare saw blade?

These discussions about saw cases/sheaths have convinced me that I need to ditch the clunky plastic case that came with the Gomboy. That little saw lives in my “essentials bag”. That bag has changed over the years before I settled on adapting a small Mountainsmith Bag for paddling purposes.

I removed the superfluous straps and such; way too many entangling webbing straps for in-canoe use.

ImageP9030001 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

And added some floatation.

ImageP8310011 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The usual contents, my 20 essentials

ImageP8310012 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

That little bag lives under the seat in the canoe, even on day trips, and next to my chair in camp. Yeah, OK, it’s a man-purse, but it holds everything I want together at my fingertips.

The plastic Gomboy case takes up too much room in that bag. I have zero sewing abilities, but next time I’m making DIY dry bags from heat sealable Packcloth I’ll iron up a custom case for the Gomboy. And I’ll use the bow saw and Gomboy to try the sawdust and wood chips test in pieces of Velcro.

And I’ll say it again, this is why I love these kinds of discussions; I detest the plastic Gomboy case, and this thread was the impetus I needed to make a less bulky case.


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