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 Post subject: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 17th, 2021, 7:48 am 
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Location: Bancroft, Ontario Canada
With Erin O'Toole releasing the Conservative platform yesterday, a quick look to compare their campaign promises wrt environment, conservation, outdoor recreation - shows less when compared to the Liberal platform, which includes camping and a target to increase the extent of protected lands to 25% by 2025 and 30% by 2030. The Conservatives don't include any recreation-based initiatives and the conservation targets are poorer, 17%, working towards 25%, without any time schedule specified (the page given in the table of contents is also wrong, not a good start).

Compare and decide for yourself... many of the newly-protected, no-development natural areas would include water features for canoeing.


https://www2.liberal.ca/wp-content/uplo ... -class.pdf

p35


https://cpcassets.conservative.ca/wp-co ... 21e07a.pdf

p37 (not p72)

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 Post subject: Re: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 17th, 2021, 8:41 am 
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Is there any way we can keep politics off this forum?

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 Post subject: Re: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 17th, 2021, 9:11 am 
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Joined: August 16th, 2011, 8:02 pm
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Location: Edmonton area
Well, sigh, if politics is going to be discussed here, then I think that not just campaign promises should be compared.

Track records of fulfilling campaign promises should be factored into the equation as well; in which case the purported benefit of the Lib plan over the Con plan should be viewed with major skepticism.

It is unlikely that their concern for this issue is more sincere than their concern for reform of the military, feminism, native reconciliation, safe water on reserves, arctic sovereignty, etc. About all of which they said lots, but did little.

Yep, their protect the natural world numbers look good. Except there is no history of them ever living up to the promises that they make, except legalizing pot, which got them elected, in any meaningful way. Why would this be different from previously established patterns of smoke and mirrors without substance?

I personally would prefer minimal political discourse on this site, but I suppose to a certain degree at least that it is inevitable. But because so many campaign promises are just empty ploys to trick voters, I would rather see political stuff it in a separate category, or at least in Off Topic section, so as to be more easily ignored or identified as unreliable information.

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 Post subject: Re: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 17th, 2021, 9:59 am 
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Location: Bancroft, Ontario Canada
guyfawkes041...


Quote:
Yep, their protect the natural world numbers look good. Except there is no history of them ever living up to the promises that they make.


The numbers you refer to must be the campaign promises which I agree, at this time, they're on paper only. On the ground and in terms of actual history, the numbers relating to increased extent of protected and conserved areas are in an uptrend and this shows no signs of reversing or levelling off.


https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-cl ... areas.html


I don't understand what these gripes are about, any wilderness paddler who values wilderness would want more protection from development rather than less... in the real world, having more of it rather than less of it, depends on politically-based initiatives. Ignoring the political process that's making this happen isn't going to help increase the quality and extent of natural areas out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 17th, 2021, 10:20 am 
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Location: Edmonton area
My gripe is about someone pushing one political party over another on this site, based on a campaign promise.

If that was not your intent, OK, I apologize for sensing it that way, but in any case, I think political discussions on this site are best presented in a separate category which identifies them as such.

That way, perhaps the inevitable sparks and passion of politics, can be kept separate from what I think most people want out of this site. That's it. I am mostly non-partisan, but am fearful of unregulated discussions of politics seeping into site content for fear of what I've seen happen to some US websites.

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 Post subject: Re: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 17th, 2021, 2:51 pm 
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Location: Warkworth
Environmental protection is directly related to politics. I don’t see the problem discussing it here…

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 Post subject: Re: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 17th, 2021, 4:56 pm 
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Location: Edmonton area
Sam82, I agree entirely; husbandry of the environment is certainly shaded by the government of the day, always. But unfortunately, Everything is related to the government, even the arts. And it is difficult to push a wet rope uphill into a bag of cats; meaning if the Environmental Forum were to become an arena of political friction between members, that sort of nonsense would spread everywhere within the site.

My gut feel is to just refrain from political issues beyond reasonable passage of info, but I acknowledge that perhaps it was a bigger deal to me than most.

I am gun-shy perhaps, and just loathe to imagine this forum, community, and country succumb to the virus-like spread of generally hostile partisanship, that somehow seems to pervade all manner of interactions elsewhere sometimes. Anyway, that's where I was coming from, not censorship etc.
And healthy discussion is always a good thing.
Cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 17th, 2021, 5:28 pm 
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For what it's worth, my opinion is that there is a fine line of balance that can be struck, and i'd compare it to the traditional line that religion is supposed to draw in regards to politics. Of course, I emphasise traditional, because in modern times all restraint seems to have gone out the window, but traditionally religious groups were supposed to stay out of politics - that separation of church and state was supposed to go both ways. But at the same time it was undeniable that certain political policies would affect certain religious beliefs in certain ways - you just couldnt pretend that one wasnt relevant to the other.

So the traditional compromise was that religion was allowed to preach or opine on specific issues and how relgion related to those issues, but they were supposed to refrain from endorsing or condemning any specific political policy, party, or person.

So in a similar manner,

While I agree that explicit political discussions about specific parties or politiicans would be out of place on this forum, I think it would nevertheless be important to look at how certain issues would be relevant to paddlers, and what a paddler's perspective might be.


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 Post subject: Re: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 21st, 2021, 3:35 pm 
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Joined: September 15th, 2006, 5:09 pm
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Location: Toronto, ON
What's the point of having these protected areas if we can't enjoy them due to severe social unrest that is to be brought onto our country by Liberals?


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 Post subject: Re: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 21st, 2021, 8:15 pm 
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Yury wrote:
What's the point of having these protected areas if we can't enjoy them due to severe social unrest that is to be brought onto our country by Liberals?


OK, here we go. a good reason to ban politics

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 Post subject: Re: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 22nd, 2021, 2:26 pm 
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Bingo Wotrock!

Let's get this locked out before I get carried away and get banned!
Cheers Ted

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 Post subject: Re: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 23rd, 2021, 1:54 am 
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Author Unknown wrote:
If you're not a liberal in your youth, you have no heart. And if you're not a conservative by your old age, you have no brain.

(suffice it to say, at the age of 42, I still have more heart than brain)
Now let's get this locked out before I get carried away and get banned!

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 Post subject: Re: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 23rd, 2021, 3:15 pm 
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If you're not a liberal in your youth, you have no heart. And if you're not a conservative by your old age, you have no brain.

Ouch! My cardiologist says I have severe heart damage. Those I discuss politics with say I have severe brain damage. So where do I go from here?

So let's see, O'Toole was a military helicopter SAR navigator and a lawyer. Trudeau was a drama teacher who liked wearing "black face". Which one makes for the best P.M.? Hmmm.


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 Post subject: Re: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 23rd, 2021, 8:33 pm 
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At least one platform identifies the reality that protecting a smaller amount of valuable land is more significant than protecting a larger amount of inaccessible or resource scare land. The larger number simply makes for a better headline, and headlines are what are what most read and regurgitate these days..

Besides, JT is paddling a Coleman Ram X in the sales image, so you know he's not serious about paddling.

However you vote, look beyond the brochure!


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 Post subject: Re: Election issues...
PostPosted: August 24th, 2021, 12:31 am 
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Ted wrote:
So let's see, O'Toole was a military helicopter SAR navigator and a lawyer. Trudeau was a drama teacher who liked wearing "black face". Which one makes for the best P.M.? Hmmm.

I refuse to base my vote on what happened 20 years ago, be it the good, the bad, or the ugly. I too have made some pretty serious mistakes, 20 years ago. I will base my vote on who I think can best move us forward (Liberal campaign slogan notwithstanding).
DougB wrote:
At least one platform identifies the reality that protecting a smaller amount of valuable land is more significant than protecting a larger amount of inaccessible or resource scare land. The larger number simply makes for a better headline, and headlines are what are what most read and regurgitate these days..

I'm not sure about that - there's a lot of "resource scarce" land that can easily become "resource rich" in very short order. Case in point, Ontario's Ring Of Fire, which I would argue should have been protected long ago, when it seemed unimportant. I've seen the damage that a gold or diamond mine can do in the barrens - I've worked on decommissioning them. There is something to be said for protecting vast swaths of seemingly unimportant land, when the opportunity arises.
DougB wrote:
Besides, JT is paddling a Coleman Ram X in the sales image, so you know he's not serious about paddling.

He's appealing to the people who voted for his father with that, I think.

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