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 Post subject: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 7th, 2012, 1:27 pm 
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Joined: July 5th, 2004, 12:55 am
Posts: 469
I've pinetarred and cleaned up the wooden skis i have. I'm wondering whether I should remove the 3 pin bindings, fill the holes and mount nnn bindings or find some 3 pin boots. The 3 pin bindings are in perfect shape. But I have nnn boots. Pricewise it's about the same with some extra work involved to change bindings. The boots I've found are new "Finmark".
Thus, never having used 3 pin...are nnn superior?
Having no experience with wood skis would it be detrimental to change bindings.
Are 3 pin boots similar to nnn boots in use?
There is a temptation to leave the skis original.. They're pretty :-)
Are Finmark boots any good ( look real plastic)?
Any thoughts?
Thxs Al


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 Post subject: Re: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 7th, 2012, 3:12 pm 
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Joined: July 2nd, 2010, 8:47 pm
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Location: Montreal, QC
I just recently replaced 3 pin bindings on a pair of used skis with Solomon SNS bindings. They came from a pair of shorter skis and I was upgrading a longer pair for my daughter. Surprisingly the hole pattern of the 3 pin toe piece matched the SNS toe piece exactly. The threaded hole size matched as well as the toe pivot point on the ski. No new holes needed there ! However the SNS heel/footplate section did need 2 new holes after I removed the 3 pin heel pad piece.

The switch over was very easy and quick. Hopefully a NNN binding has a similar pattern.

Many years ago when I switched my XC ski set-up from 3 pin to NNN, my XC skiing experience went from night to day. First off, I finally was able to get a pair of comfortable, warm boots which kept my toes warm, didn't pinch my toes and gave me some ankle support. The pivioting of my boots in the bindings was easier on my toe flex and my heels stayed on the back of the ski when turning/ploughing. My old 3 pin boots (very cheap) gave me sore feet, frost bitten toes and lateral heel slide which made herring bone climbs difficult. So for me the switch to better ski boots was the key but the newer binding also provided better skiing performance.

My XC skiing is on skier packed (non groomed) trails sometimes with a 15 kg packpack.


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 Post subject: Re: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 7th, 2012, 4:40 pm 
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Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 11:21 pm
Posts: 1080
Location: Burns Lake, BC
No comparison from 3 pin to any modern binding. 3 pin are very sloppy compared to a bar binding.
Your skill level will go up just from changing gear.

I'm a fan of the NNN-BC.


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 Post subject: Re: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 7th, 2012, 9:37 pm 
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Joined: December 19th, 2006, 8:47 pm
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Location: Rattlesnake Pond ME
I am not a fan yet of the NNN bindings but I think it is the boot. I have quite expensive custom fitted boots for the three pin and am comfortable on things like the John Sherburne trail or the Wildcat Trail in the Whites..(couple of thousand feet descent in two or three miles). My NNN boots are lower cut, and frankly feel sloppier. I have not yet dared any real descents. I can appreciate how the bar would give more control but the NNN equipped skis tend to kick out on ice when snowplowing. I need to practice more tele turns.


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 Post subject: Re: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 8th, 2012, 10:42 am 
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Joined: December 20th, 2003, 9:27 am
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I don't know the Finmark boots so can't comment on them.
As paddle4fun said, the holes for the front of the binding will line up and, sometimes, depending upon boot size, even the back screw-hole will line up.
There were two classes of 3 pin gear - one for mostly trail use and the other for heavier, off-trail use. Generally, the older, standard 3-pin boots and bindings do not offer much in the way of lateral stability and, therefore, a lack of control when trying to snowplow or even herringbone as your boot slips sideways off of the ski.
I would guess that LRC must have the heavier boots and the 3 pin bindings that allow for the thicker sole of those boots (and often have allowance for cables). Judging from the elevation changes, she must be a very good skier to negotiate those trails in that equipment. Those beefier boots and bindings give much better lateral rigidity than the standard 3 pin boots and bindings.
The newer bindings (NNN and Solomon Profil, etc.) offer much better lateral control because the the ridge or ridges in the bindings and corresponding grooves in the bottom of the very rigid boot sole.
The newer (for NNN, Profil, etc.) boots are usually over ankle height while many of the older 3-pin boots were cut quite low and so gave less support and let snow in very easily. The newer foam insulation seems to be much more effective at retaining "loft" and at keeping feet warm.
If you want to go the the NNN or similar system and if you are using this equipment off-trail, you might want to consider going to the NNN-BC (Back Country) as they are built to take more abuse. I'm not sure if Solomon has a heavy duty back country binding or not.
In the mountains out here, 3 pin cable bindings used to be the standard for off-trail use but many of my friends have gone to Alpine Touring (AT) gear. Many skiers, even those still using the cable bindings, have gone to plastic boots (like downhill ski boots) for warmth and control. The AT gear allows one to clamp down the heel of the boot so that when you are coming downhill, you parallel ski as in downhill skiing.
Ralph


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 Post subject: Re: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 8th, 2012, 10:54 am 
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Location: Ontario
Canoeheadted wrote:
No comparison from 3 pin to any modern binding. 3 pin are very sloppy compared to a bar binding.
Your skill level will go up just from changing gear.

I'm a fan of the NNN-BC.



TOTALLY agree.

I have Solomons and yes, no comparison at all, up or down hill, for control, comfort, the whole package. Make the change. :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 8th, 2012, 11:41 am 
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Location: Rattlesnake Pond ME
Yes I use the three pin boots with the allowance for cables. And the cables too.

the bindings are the three pin NN backcountry.

If you are not in the mountains I would not see why you would want my boots and binding system. They are heavy! And add skins too for more heaviness.


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 Post subject: Re: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 8th, 2012, 8:53 pm 
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Joined: July 5th, 2004, 12:55 am
Posts: 469
I've been swayed away from sentimentality to new bindings!
Thanks all, Alp


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 Post subject: Re: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 8th, 2012, 11:26 pm 
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Joined: August 19th, 2001, 7:00 pm
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Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada
[quote="Canoeheadted"]No comparison from 3 pin to any modern binding. 3 pin are very sloppy compared to a bar binding.
Your skill level will go up just from changing gear.
quote]

This is totally wrong!

Modern mountaineering 3-pin bindings are still the light weight touring binding of choice for rugged touring with true back country skis (metal edges, some modest side cut). The Voile 3-pin mountaineer is legendary. Add cables, etc for some telemark turning. The telemark and AT community has branched out with big plastic boots also with new downhill bindings, but that is for dedicated turning. I have lost track of the latest development, but last I checked the back country touring community is still supporting and thriving on robust 75 mm bindings.

If your experience is sloppy fit then you had poor quality gear. There are some old flimsy 3-pin bindings out there of course, and also crummy floppy, cold boots.

If you are track skiing on groomed trails with skinny skis, then the light weight small front bar equipment is superior for sure. I use Salomon profil bindings for the skinny track here and love them. But those skis and that binding would break in the back country. Plus the track skis are shaped wrong for off track touring.

It really is a different sport and activity in-track VS back country where you want a wider steel edged ski with a bit of side cut (wider tips and tails). Track skinny skis are reverse side cut (narrow tips and tails), and don't have float for ungroomed snow.

Salomon and other companies make back country versions of their systems which are very good. My buddies use them. But they are not as strong as a rugged 75mm binding. And they have more problems with icing. Most polar expeditions use 75mm bindings.

Its a myth that performance of a Salomon or NNN binding is superior in the back country. Its the skier, not the binding, and performance is a different concept when you are hauling a sled. Its not a race. I study photos of my stride with my full leather Garmont Tours and Voile Mountainer bindings, and I get full extension on the foot. Good quality leather touring boots will let you get up on your toes too.

The poor lateral rigidity claim is also false. If it was true, mountaineering bindings would have dropped the 75mm in favour of a narrow front bar. They haven't done that of course. You can get boots where your leg will snap off before your foot moves off the ski.

Its hard to find a very light but heavy duty full leather back country boot that will keep you warm (over size it for a heavy sock system too). But there are some nice small plastics out too which are better for cranking a telemark turn. But I ski on the flats on lakes and bush roads, and prefer my full leathers.

Anyways its a huge complex topic. Track VS back country is very different. I just saw some comments that were technically incorrect on 75mm, so had to chime in. The best source for back country skiing info I know of on-line is Telemarktips.com. From there you can find a wealth of info.

Happy skiing in whatever you chose.
:D

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 Post subject: Re: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 8th, 2012, 11:46 pm 
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Hoop said:
Quote:
The poor lateral rigidity claim is also false. If it was true, mountaineering bindings would have dropped the 75mm in favour of a narrow front bar. They haven't done that of course. You can get boots where your leg will snap off before your foot moves off the ski.


Hoop,
I have to take some issue here. I just re-read the OP and he does not indicate whether he has back-country 3-pin bindings (which I have along with cables and leather boots) or if he has the lightweight 3-pin bindings. If he has the former, you have a point. If he has the latter, then the point about poor lateral rigidity is valid.
I tried to clarify that in my previous post but obviously, I was not clear.

FWIW: Many of my friends are moving to AT gear, not only for turning but for general touring. I'm not convinced that's the way to go but I am feeling significant peer pressure.

Alex1
After I re-read the OP, I realized I didn't read it very well.
Exactly what type of 3-pin bindings do you have? Are they lightweight or the back-country type. Are your boots back-country or trail boots?
What type of skiing will you be doing? track, trail, carring a pack, pulling a toboggan, generally flat terrain or narrow hilly trails with deep snow, etc.?

Ralph


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 Post subject: Re: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 9th, 2012, 7:48 am 
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Joined: December 19th, 2006, 8:47 pm
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Location: Rattlesnake Pond ME
Quote:
f you are track skiing on groomed trails with skinny skis, then the light weight small front bar equipment is superior for sure. I use Salomon profil bindings for the skinny track here and love them. But those skis and that binding would break in the back country. Plus the track skis are shaped wrong for off track touring.


That's what I had experienced and seen years ago. But I gave the benefit of the doubt to newer evolutions of the NNN bindings.

Also I see few high leather boots with the NNN pins in the White Mountain ski stores. Of which there are a few dozen. BC skiing is big.


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 Post subject: Re: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 9th, 2012, 10:45 am 
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Posts: 469
Lightweight and I've been doing mainly track and wanting to do some snowmobile trail sking whicj is what I hope the wood skis will be good for.


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 Post subject: Re: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 9th, 2012, 12:53 pm 
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Joined: December 20th, 2003, 9:27 am
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Alex1,
You could probably ski on a snowmobile trail with your track skis if you are not carrying much or pulling anything but you might have some issues with the camber and wax pocket of track skis. If your wooden skis are wider than your track skis and don't have much camber, then they should work fine for your intended purpose. As far as bindings go, unless you are skiing on terrain where you need lots of control, the lightweight, 3-pin bindings, coupled with a decent boot, would do although you would have more control with a NNN or Solomon binding. If you are planning to go a little more off the beaten track, you might want to consider the NNN-BC (I believe that NNN-BC bindings require a different boot than standard NNN-which also requires a different boot than NNN2) or the Solomon XADV bindings (special boot?). If you think you will be doing some heavy-duty back country touring then you need to consider other options.
Ralph


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 Post subject: Re: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 9th, 2012, 1:31 pm 
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Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 11:21 pm
Posts: 1080
Location: Burns Lake, BC
Hoop...Yes I understand your statement about backcountry 3 pin, but most people aren't coming from that type of gear.
They're coming from shitty hand me down boots and bindings that have been in use since I was born. Or they're older users...and choose not to evolve.

Either way, the statement is true for 99% of the people going through this exact situation.

But ya, all that stuff you wrote is correct too. :D


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 Post subject: Re: nnn or 75mm?
PostPosted: January 12th, 2012, 2:23 pm 
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Joined: February 25th, 2011, 7:15 am
Posts: 90
I recently switched from leather telemark boots to this 21st century version of the 3 pin boot. I have about 30 km on them, and so far I'm pleased. They're perfect for Algonquin park terrain: comfortable for lots of kick and glide, yet supportive enough for downhill control and bushwacking. They're light and warm (although I haven't tested them below -10). The zip up cover adds great protection from ice and moisture. I use old downhill skis with skins for my off trail work, which these boots handle easily.

Image

I much prefer the 3 pin binding for heavy duty work, and the boots are easier to walk in and less prone to accumulating ice under the heel. Likewise the 3 pin binding is easy to deice. I've used system bindings (Salomon) and boots for many years for racing, but I agree that for off trail work I would worry about breaking the binding, even if it were a heavier off trail model.

Alpina has been making such boots for some time. These two are worth checking out.

Image

Image


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