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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 20th, 2021, 9:50 am 
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Location: Toronto, ON
boat_mouse wrote:
"The level of inequality that defines specific variants of capitalism and supposedly secures productivity and profits is hardly compatible with the democratic principle of equal rights and opportunities for political participation."
Peter Turchin is also concerned about it.
He noticed quite a few similarities between current political situation and a situation that happened in the US about 100 years ago. Back there social unrest was cured with more progressive taxation.
Turchin believes that the same approach should work today as well.
The main challenge is how to get Republicans and Democrats cooperating toward this goal without destruction of the current American society.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Turchin
https://peterturchin.com/

boat_mouse wrote:
"Socioeconomic inequality challenges the core democratic principle of equality in participation, representation and governance."
Equal participation in government is a nice ideal that never can be implemented.
All the time some people (tribal chiefs, capitalists, people who control media, party apparatchiks, government bureaucrats etc.) are more equal and have more influence than the other.
Personally I like society where government policies are controlled by capitalists more than society where
they are controlled by communists.
My preference is not ideology driven, but is driven by facts.
Modern capitalist countries provided better standard of life for people than all other types of government.
I want to preserve this state of prosperity and people happiness and avoid one more attempt to build Brave New Word of equitable socialism.


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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 20th, 2021, 10:29 am 
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boat_mouse wrote: "Socioeconomic inequality challenges the core democratic principle of equality in participation, representation and governance."

Smacks of "equality of outcome" divorced of an individual's effort. "equality of opportunity" on the whole works for rewarding effort. If one were to hold "equality of outcome" then professional basketball would statistically represent the population.

One can redistribute wealth through taxes. One can print money One can borrow money. To me borrowing money can be a burden on the future and the innocent. Presently we have an unfunded future to the tune of $161.147 trillion dollars. I am awaiting an answer as to how that will be resolved It will be resolved the only question is how.


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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 20th, 2021, 5:13 pm 
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david demello wrote:
high An example of "-Having a 2 party system in which 1 party becomes hell bent on undermining the democratic process" would be appreciated.
.



I guess anything published in a left wing rag such as the Economist would not count in your books.https://www.economist.com/united-states ... rights-act

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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 20th, 2021, 6:00 pm 
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I guess anything published in a left wing rag such as the Economist would not count in your books.https://www.economist.com/united-states ... rights-act

absolutely wrong. You insult yourself with such ignorant presumptive nonsense. I may not expect more but I would hope you would aspire to more. Being an Independent, I belong only to myself. One of my favorite books is "An Eternal Golden Braid". Ours is a "fugue" world of point-counterpoint. It braids a golden thread called dialogue which is greater than its parts because it leads to a synthesis that is more than its parts. We are not weaponized word islands lobbing word bombs at each other.

Try harder


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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 20th, 2021, 8:29 pm 
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from wotrock's post
Quote:
EIGHT YEARS ago, the Supreme Court struck down a provision of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 (VRA) that had required states with histories of racial discrimination to get federal approval before changing election rules.



Quote:
In McPherson v. Blacker (1892), the Supreme Court reaffirmed that line of state control in holding that the Constitution “leaves it to the [state] legislature exclusively” how a state conducts presidential elections and stressing that the state legislature’s power “can neither be taken away nor abdicated.”

https://jonathanturley.org/2021/08/05/b ... elections/




Quote:
Republic Vs Democracy

The answer to the question “Is the US a republic?” is a definite “yes.”

Whereas saying the United States is a “democracy” may get controversial and requires some more diving into detail, saying the United States is a republic is 100 % correct – in fact, it was the first constitutional republic in the world, established at a time where monarchy was the default form of government.

The United States is a Constitution Republic
https://constitutionus.com/democracy/is ... -republic/


Last edited by david demello on November 20th, 2021, 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 20th, 2021, 9:33 pm 
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Location: Sunny Wasaga Beach
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detai ... ict-voting

"Republicans are going to great lengths to make voting harder for mostly Democratic-leaning groups. They have argued that the moves are necessary to restore faith in the election system—which was damaged, of course, by the lies they and Mr Trump spread about the election being “stolen”. Given the near-absence of voter fraud in American elections, it is hard to imagine such proposals are truly about anything but power."

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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 21st, 2021, 1:27 am 
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Posts: 61
The lack of a question-mark in your thread title implies you have the answer.
How do demcracies die David?


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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 21st, 2021, 6:04 am 
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boat_ mouse said "The lack of a question-mark in your thread title implies you have the answer.
How do demcracies die David?"


Indeed I do Mr boat_mouse. Indeed I do. But for now, it's my little secret! First, you have to pass my little math test. Solve the emergent debt problem of the "unfunded liabilities" How does one extract $161.163 trillion dollars from an entity and keep that entity viable? The need for that to be answered will evidence the difference between a symbiotic or parasitic relationship of the entity with itself.

But permit me to correct you on one small point. I do not have one answer and if you had put my initial post in context you would have known you were incorrect. In fact, my calling the United States a democracy although correct it would have been more correct to have called it a Constitutional Republic.


Quote:
Republic Vs Democracy

The answer to the question “Is the US a republic?” is a definite “yes.”

Whereas saying the United States is a “democracy” may get controversial and requires some more diving into detail, saying the United States is a republic is 100 % correct – in fact, it was the first constitutional republic in the world, established at a time where monarchy was the default form of government.


transmogrifying from a "Constitutional Republic" to a "Democracy" requires a loss/discarding of information. Why do I use the term "Democracy" instead of "Constitutional Republic"? Perception is reality making what was so yesterday.

But please Mr boat_mouse grace me with your answer to the United States emergent debt crisis. SAVE AMERICA


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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 21st, 2021, 1:13 pm 
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*Deleted double post*


Last edited by Krusty on November 22nd, 2021, 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 21st, 2021, 1:55 pm 
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boat_ mouse said "The lack of a question-mark in your thread title implies you have the answer.
How do demcracies(sic) die David?"

While I am waiting for boat_mouse to chime in on solving my possible threat to "How Democracy Die" via unfunded liabilities, I decided to entertain another point of view with the self-same title "How Democracies Die" by Steve Levitsky and Daniel Zamblatt. Understandably the using of Trump is no longer viable since he is no longer president, but if the "authoritarian tendencies" espoused transcend one personality, IE Trump, then perhaps they are applicable to another president? President Biden for instance. Curious? I am, therefore I will do.

In my effort to be abundantly fair, I will rely upon an interview on PBS's "Fresh Air". Surely no sane person would accuse PBS of being pro-Trump and that the essential ideas of "How Democracies Die" Steve Levitsky and Daniel Zamblatt were not presented.


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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 21st, 2021, 2:25 pm 
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Yuri, you've contributed some thoughtful posts and I've got some free time and I'd like to address them. Sorry for the wall of words .... I tend to ramble some times.
To make clear my understanding of the terms Socialism is generally described as the ownership of the means of production by the workers. There are no true democratic socialist countries but there are some with more equitable social policies, more "socialist". Communism goes a step further with the government running everything: owning all businesses and property and paying people directly "each according to their needs". Neither one necessitates a dictator despite the historically bad examples and right-wing misinformation.
Yury wrote:
I also like their concern about establishment of socialist (statist in Dan Mitchell terms) government that can bring the end of the current age of prosperity.

I don't, because it's a phony political talking point to make voters afraid; a fabricated "concern" that is being promulgated by Republicans and the right-wing media who say Democrats are talking about it. But they are not.
They are talking about implementing social programs that arguably advance prosperity by for example helping citizens enter and remain in the workforce with day-care and paid maternity leave, and by fostering an educated and healthy population that are prerequisites for long-term prosperity. Things that are themselves a tangible measure of the prosperity of a nation.
As VP's well thought out post previously outlined these social programs have been transmuted into "concern" over full-on Lenin-style communist dictatorship. Better be afraid!

(as an aside, I don't think socialist and statist are sufficiently congruent terms that they can be swamped willy-nilly but that's another discussion)
Quote:
If you want to better understand why all those socialist ideas of more equitable distribution and more government control would lead to short term growth of standard of life for underprivileged and would lead to long term decrease of standard of life for majority of people
Could you give a couple of examples of these socialist ideas that are actually relevant to American politics? Can you explain why there has been no decrease in the standard of living for those democracies that have more equitable social policies?

Earlier in the thread David posted stats lamenting that under the current system people with higher incomes assume more and more of the tax burden. Here's the other side of the story:
Wikepedia wrote:
in 2017, an Oxfam study found that only eight people, six of them Americans, own as much combined wealth as half the human race...
the bottom 50 percent of wealth owners experienced no net wealth growth since 1989. At the other end of the spectrum, the top 1 percent have seen their wealth grow by almost 300 percent since 1989...
The gap between the wealth of the top 10% and that of the middle class is over 1,000%; that increases another 1,000% for the top 1%.....
As of Q3 2019, the top 10% of households held 70% of the country's wealth, while the bottom 50% held 2%....
And the trend continues. But when you are talking percentages there's an absolute limit - it can't go on forever. Things have to change or something bad will happen.

Quote:
socialist ideas of more equitable distribution
What are the capitalist ideas for more equitable distribution? It sounds oxymoronic.

Quote:
The main challenge is how to get Republicans and Democrats cooperating toward this goal
This isn't a "both sides" issue. It's Republicans and right-wing media who represent the interests of those that currently hold the wealth and power and to whom wealth redistribution is anathema.
Quote:
Personally I like society where government policies are controlled by capitalists more than society where they are controlled by communists.
Sure, but nobody's talking about communism except the right-wing.

Quote:
My preference is not ideology driven, but is driven by facts.
Modern capitalist countries provided better standard of life for people than all other types of government. I want to preserve this state of prosperity and people happiness and avoid one more attempt to build Brave New Word of equitable socialism.
With respect Yuri your facts don't seem to line-up with the observable on-the-ground reality. The Scandinavian countries have had more equitable social policies for decades. According to your ideology they should be poverty-stricken communist dictatorships by now (hyperbole - exaggeration to make a point). Try Googling "per capita GDP by country". They are all top performers with the list I saw showing Norway as "more prosperous" then the USA. Then try Googling something like "happiness index by country" which may be a more important measure. The USA is way down the list. All the democracies with more equitable social policies then the USA are at the top. Except France but, well, it's France so...
Out of time. Cheers.


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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 21st, 2021, 6:28 pm 
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Krusty
Quote:
What are the capitalist ideas for more equitable distribution? It sounds oxymoronic.



Oh, would you like to connect this with the stated theme "How Democracies Die"?

or are you building a bridge to nowhere? A place called socialism


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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 21st, 2021, 11:46 pm 
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A seminal quote From NPR "Fresh Air a talkie dated Jan. 22, 2018 titled "How Democracies Die' Authors Say Trump Is A Symptom Of 'Deeper Problems'"

DANIEL ZIBLATT
Quote:
Electoral authoritarians come to power democratically. They often have democratic legitimacy as a result of being elected.


Does the term "authoritarian" apply when, although turbulent, there is a nonviolent transfer of power to the next president?

I almost forgot the "unfunded Liabilities now stand at $161.179 trillion dollars. When I started this thread it was almost $158 trillion dollars

factoid the increase in U.S. unfunded liabilities during the time of existence of this thread (Sun Oct 24, 2021 - Sun Nov 21, 2021 ) is almost twice the total GPD of Canada for the year. American dollars of course.


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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 22nd, 2021, 7:37 am 
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Unless there is a provable Trump effort to usurp authority, Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt theory on How Democracies Die is at best unrealized. One of the reasons is that much of their effort was unrelated to Trump in that the cast of political characters formed their effort over many years and Trump was a political neophyte when he ran and won the presidency. The basic facts are that someone with no political experience won the presidency and left when he lost. All the blather about a "January 6 insurrection" evaporated when the "FBI confirms there was no insurrection on Jan. 6". Perhaps Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt should have waited until the Durham investigation matured before they theorized about "How Democracies Die" One thing is for sure they are not of Darwin/Wallace mettle.

If Trump was considered as an agent of usurpation what of Biden who acknowledged breaking established law? There was chatter in Levitsky and Ziblatt's book about "packing" the Supreme Court as an instrument of authoritarianism. Did not President Biden set up a commission to explore just such a possibility? There was also talk of Trump demonizing the press as authoritarian but then what about authoritarians using the press as an extension of their power?

excerpt:
Quote:
Newspapers were greatly used by the Nazi Party to spread the party line. Newspapers were commonly purchased in an era that pre-dated television and along with the cinema and radio was the primary mode of spreading information – information that the Nazi Party wanted to control. Hitler came to power on January 30th 1933 and almost immediately set out plans that would give the Nazis total power over all newspapers.


https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/n ... i-germany/

What value is Trump's demonizing the press to establishing authoritarian rule When a Hitler utilizes the press for that very same end.

There is a difference between theory and opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: How Democracies Die
PostPosted: November 22nd, 2021, 7:45 am 
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If a president intentionally breaks the is that an example of authoritarianism?


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