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PostPosted: June 6th, 2021, 3:22 pm 
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That cord is NOT what you want for prussics. You need to have as close as possible to the strength of your haul line which means Spectra or similar. (Anything that is advertised as "not for climbing" is definitely not for a pin kit.)

Similarly, maybe you could use a non-Spectra static line in an emergency, but it has less than half the strength of Spectra, will stretch incredibly under tension and will break. I've gradually changed all my lines to Spectra, even the ones used for lining and hanging tarps because you never know when you will need a really good rope.

The tubular webbing cited is good, 5 m. is the correct length. On a trip, I would like to see at least 2 pieces of webbing -- one for the anchor and the other to use as the sling on the boat so I'm pulling on webbing, not on a piece of the boat.

Don't know why you want the pear shaped biners. A pulley fits fine on the small ones. The locking gate is the key feature.

The stand for a pin kit these days is:
* 4 locking biners
* 3 pulleys
* 2 prussiks
* 1 5m length of webbing

You should be wearing this gear on you. If you keep it in a boat, as sure as anything, that will be the boat that is pinned ;). I can't get this into my pfd so I have a small belt pouch on my throw bag belt (quick release). Wearing the throw bag has saved a lot of trips walking back to the boat after scouting a set and deciding that we do need to set up safety 200 m down it.


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PostPosted: June 7th, 2021, 12:46 pm 
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OK, cool, thanks for clarifying all of that. Truly a huge help to zero in on all of this stuff.

So I'm looking at this, then, for prusiks as it looks like it has a high breaking strength and at 7mm, gives me a bit more size differential from the 3/8" throw rope:
https://vpo.ca/product/233436/accessory ... -sold-pmtr
Think I'd use this for the painter loops as well. Please send up a red flag if you see one.

For carabiners, is there a preferred shape? I have no carabiner experience beyond my keychain...

One last question: I was basing my plan for a Z-drag kit on Ray Goodwin's instructional video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7FuKIXLkj0
It appears that he uses 3 biners, 2 pulleys, and 1 prusik. The list in the previous post has one extra of each of these items. Is that just in case something breaks/gets lost or is that to set a 5:1 drag?
(Sorry for all the questions!)

And thanks for the tip about having the kit on me. I was planning to keep it all together and accessible but was thinking about the best way to do that. Don't think I'll have space for it in my life jacket pockets, but I like the idea of a small pack connected to the throw bag.


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PostPosted: June 7th, 2021, 7:19 pm 
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The only criteria that you need to worry about with biners are: are they fit for climbing? are they locking gate? If they are strong enough for climbing (and not just binering your drink bottle onto your laptop case) they are strong enough for river rescue. The locking gate prevents them from binering you to something unintentionally and coming undone at the wrong moment.

This is one area of several where Ray Goodwin should not be taken at face value. If you have just one prussic, you will presumably use it on the haul line. That means that after you tension the line, you will lose the tension if you put slack on the line. The other prussic goes on the anchor to hold the line for you.

If you only have one pulley then you won't be able to do a change of direction at the anchor with the haul line. This is important because if the haul line breaks free from the load everything will come snapping back to the anchor at high speed. Better to change direction of the haul and stay out of the way.

From your questions, I think you would be well served to take a course where you could practice setting up mechanical advantage. Nearly all providers now teach to the same basic standard. Anyone part of the Rescue 3 group is recommended as is Boreal River. If you want to watch a video with modern techniques see https://rescue.borealriver.com/whitewat ... ak-rescue/


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PostPosted: June 8th, 2021, 8:14 pm 
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Joined: October 25th, 2020, 3:18 pm
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Thanks so much! That video is really clear. Lots of good info on their site.


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PostPosted: June 11th, 2021, 1:55 pm 
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Joined: January 11th, 2005, 4:58 pm
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Location: Manitoba
A good paddling retailer usually has a knowledge staff member for river rescue equipment. Ask as s/he may not be working while you are shopping.

It's important to get river rescue training as well.

It sounds like you are making progress.

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http://www.JohnstonPursuits.ca

 


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PostPosted: July 13th, 2021, 1:08 pm 
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Joined: August 16th, 2011, 8:02 pm
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Location: Edmonton area
If, after reading the preceding posts, anyone might be wondering, like I was, where/how to carry a pin kit, I can recommend one option for consideration.

I made a DIY zippered pouch for the back of my PFD. It doesn't alter the PFD, is easily removable, water flows right through it, it weighs very little, and it is much more streamlined than the commercially available model from the same company as the PFD. And, it costs about $80 less.

It took me maybe a half-hour to make using a sewing machine, but because it's small, if a sewing machine is not an option, it could be easily hand stitched by most folks I think.

Image

I made it from scraps of rubberized linen mesh left from another project. I double-stitched it, added a zipper, some edge binding, some small grommets, and secured it to the PFD with small pieces of paracord. I ensured that the pouch does not interfere with the release of the rescue belt just below it. To buy the things needed to make this would cost maybe $20. The side view shows how streamlined the pouch is.

Image

Inside the pouch, I carry both a larger and a smaller tubular webbing anchor slings, 3 x climbing pulleys, two of which are prussic-minding, 2 x prussics, and 3 x locking carabiners.

Image

A 4th locking carabiner connects my rear painter to a co-located 75' spectra throw bag.

I have a simpler throw bag close at hand in the paddling station of the canoe as well, and I have laminated Z drag cheat sheets tucked away in a PFD pocket.

The padding in the back of this PFD (Kokatat Maximus Centurion) is substantial, and in the unlikely event of my back hitting a rock in the river, I do believe that the padding would prevent impact injury from the metal bits in the pin kit.

Because the weight in the pouch is minimal and held tight against the PFD, the felt weight while paddling is also near nil.

Anyway, for anyone seeking one, it's another option besides grab bags, leg bags, fanny packs, PFD pockets, etc. for carrying a pin kit.

Cheers all.

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PostPosted: July 13th, 2021, 5:55 pm 
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:D Mostly pins.... bobby pins, straight pins, clothes pins, bowling pins, rolling pins, cotter pins, spring pins, shear pins, a few nice lapel pins and a couple of stick pins,,,, :D


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PostPosted: July 13th, 2021, 9:37 pm 
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Joined: October 6th, 2005, 8:02 am
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Location: a bit south ofWinnipeg
guyfawkes041 wrote:
If, after reading the preceding posts, anyone might be wondering, like I was, where/how to carry a pin kit, I can recommend one option for consideration.

I made a DIY zippered pouch for the back of my PFD. It doesn't alter the PFD, is easily removable, water flows right through it, it weighs very little, and it is much more streamlined than the commercially available model from the same company as the PFD. And, it costs about $80 less.

It took me maybe a half-hour to make using a sewing machine, but because it's small, if a sewing machine is not an option, it could be easily hand stitched by most folks I think.

Image

I made it from scraps of rubberized linen mesh left from another project. I double-stitched it, added a zipper, some edge binding, some small grommets, and secured it to the PFD with small pieces of paracord. I ensured that the pouch does not interfere with the release of the rescue belt just below it. To buy the things needed to make this would cost maybe $20. The side view shows how streamlined the pouch is.

Image

How is it fixed to the pfd? I’d hate to see you get snagged by a branch as you float on your back through a rapid. Very low chance but I’ve known similar things happen. The pouch on my Palm PFD uses breakaway clips in case this happens.

Inside the pouch, I carry both a larger and a smaller tubular webbing anchor slings, 3 x climbing pulleys, two of which are prussic-minding, 2 x prussics, and 3 x locking carabiners.

Image

A 4th locking carabiner connects my rear painter to a co-located 75' spectra throw bag.

I have a simpler throw bag close at hand in the paddling station of the canoe as well, and I have laminated Z drag cheat sheets tucked away in a PFD pocket.

The padding in the back of this PFD (Kokatat Maximus Centurion) is substantial, and in the unlikely event of my back hitting a rock in the river, I do believe that the padding would prevent impact injury from the metal bits in the pin kit.

Because the weight in the pouch is minimal and held tight against the PFD, the felt weight while paddling is also near nil.

Anyway, for anyone seeking one, it's another option besides grab bags, leg bags, fanny packs, PFD pockets, etc. for carrying a pin kit.

Cheers all.

_________________
http://www.canoepaddler.net


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PostPosted: July 14th, 2021, 11:11 am 
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Location: Edmonton area
Chris, the pouch that I made is tied in place with paracord at 4 points, using one of the many breakaway knots found in tutorials on YouTube.

The pouch that Kokatat sells which is designed for this PFD is called the Kokatat Tactic Pack. Being a deeper and wider pouch than my DIY'er, it sticks out from the PFD much farther. It is not held in place as tightly against the back of the PFD as mine is. Unlike mine, it can flop around and create space between the pouch and the PFD, which greatly increases snagging potential.

As well, it has 4 adjustable webbing straps which run to the front of the PFD, over the shoulders and across the kidneys, which themselves present snagging risks. And, it does not have any breakaway system for safety in snagging situations. It does have manual quick releases though.

In all, the Kokatat Tactic Pack is Far, far more likely to present a snagging risk, so in that light, mine is certainly much safer.

In extremis, if snagged and in distress, if the breakaway knots holding the pouch onto the back of my PFD fail to breakaway, I would just pull the bouncing red ball on the rescue harness, and release the side closure Fastex buckles on the PFD, and swim out of it.

As you allude to, although not impossible, the likelihood of being snagged by the back of your PFD is not such that it can be considered a great risk, and since the one I made is considerably safer to wear than the one normally sold for my PFD, I am sufficiently comfortable with having it as is.

But certainly, you raised a good point, thanks Chris.
Cheers.

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