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 Post subject: Lining a canoe
PostPosted: February 12th, 2005, 1:18 pm 
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Rather than continue to hijack another thread, I've started this one. Hopefully the Search function will find it easier.

recped wrote:
Short course on lining.......

Standard pianter lines (at the ends of your boat) are faily short (5 metres?), for lining it's often good to have at least one of these (stern?) much longer although each individual situation is different..

A boat being lined under control and without the weight of paddlers may "touch" rocks but will not "hit hard" as it would when being paddled.

Be CAREFUL, wet rocks, moss etc. can make lining dangerous to your skull or other body parts that break easily.

Don't let you boat go sideways, it can get sucked into even a small hole and flip quite easily.

For starters it's easiest to control if lining with two people (one with bow rope, one with stern rope).

Be prepared to get wet, in some situations where the banks are overgrown or very steep you may have to get right into the water in spots.

Be careful with your ropes, make sure there are no knots to get snagged on rocks and I personally find that most lining rope are determined to entangle your legs.

In "easy" lining situations you can often just walk down the shoreline and let the boat float along (with the occasional pull or push), in more difficult terrain you may have to "inch" your way down (controlling the boat from the stern while letting it float downstream to the waiting second person who will then "control" the boat while you catch up.

Once you get reasonably good at this you may be able to line instead of portaging in many places or run most of a rapid but "line" around a serious ledge in the middle.

Good non-slip footwear is important as is cold water gear, mountain rivers here are generally pretty cold and I imagine nothern Sweden/Norway would be similar.

And finally if there are bugs they see lining paddlers as a great opportunity for a feast so take precautions. Here in Canada at least the black flies are often the worst when lining as you are often disturbing the shoreline vegetation where they are hiding.

Ben


HOOP wrote:
Good short course Recped.

Don't forget that the painter lines should be floating rope. The larger the diameter the better, for good hand grip in the wet and cold.

I prefer longer painters, about twice as long as the canoe (e.g. 12 m). However I have advanced skills. The longer the painter lines, the easier you can get yourself into real bad trouble! Best to stick with shorter painters for now until you build the skills. Too short however and they will be useless. About as long as the canoe is a good guideline for short painters.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 12th, 2005, 1:22 pm 
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recped wrote:
Don't let you boat go sideways, it can get sucked into even a small hole and flip quite easily.

Good advice. Sideways also increases the danger of getting hung up on an unseen rock.
The other big danger when sideways is letting the current get between you and your boat, and as you pull to stop it or straighten it out you are fighting the flow. The boat can slew off at an unexpected angle. Or worse, the upstream side can be forced down….bad things about to happened! Don’t underestimate the force of even a modest current against the side of a canoe.
A friend of mine is an expert liner. He’ll push his boat waaayyyy out, broadside to the flow, to get around bad stuff near shore. He’s really good at predicting how the flow will push his boat about, and is real careful not to get the sagging rope hung up.
You may also want the boat broadside if you’ll need to quickly pull it toward you across the flow, say like after it’s gotten around an obstacle and there’s another right away.

Another thing to consider when lining is the trim of the boat. For example, if controlling the boat straight from the back you may want the front a little heavier.

Like most skills, lining looks easy when well executed, but it isn’t. It’s surprisingly easy to screw up. When it goes wrong it happens very fast, and is really, really annoying. :evil:


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 Post subject: lining
PostPosted: February 12th, 2005, 1:52 pm 
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A few additional points:

-- Painters should be attached to the ends of the canoe just above the waterline. This often requires that a half inch hole be drilled and a section of pvc pipe installed for the painter to pass through. This greatly reduces the chance of flipping the canoe while pulling it cross-current.

-- As previously mentioned, floating rope is prefered. I like half inch diameter
polypropolene, burned at each end, and tied to the canoe with a follow-through
figure eight knot.

-- When not in use, painters (stashed "butterflied") are held to the bow and stern decks with bungee cord sections permanently installed on the decks.

-- I prefer painters of 25 feet in length. Longer lines can be hard to manage.

-- Like most skills, lining takes practice to master, but is a critically important skill for northern canoe travel.

Gordon


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 Post subject: Re: lining
PostPosted: February 12th, 2005, 3:24 pm 
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ghommes wrote:

-- Painters should be attached to the ends of the canoe just above the waterline. This often requires that a half inch hole be drilled and a section of pvc pipe installed for the painter to pass through. This greatly reduces the chance of flipping the canoe while pulling it cross-current.



]Gordon


This is something that may or may not need to happen. Yes you can do this, but I would suggest that it is placed half way up the stem and not at the water line and you would only do this to lay up boats.

If you have roylex tie the painters onto the grab loops or use a biner to connect them. The holes for the grab loops are high enough and small enough that they don`t need to be sealed.

If you have a fear that your lining line maybe to high than make a harness with the end of the lining rope so it raps up around the seat and back down under to the center of the boat. No holes needed !

Lining lines can be uses for multi task. Do not get lining lines mixed out with painters, they can be two different animals. I would suggest you use big water throw bags for lining lines. They store neatly and safely in the boat or on top of the spray deck.

If you are paddling continous rapids in strong current this is where they become multi task items. They now become part of your rescue gear. Using as many as three big water throw bags, connect the end of these lines together with figure 8 knots and locking biners. Now you have some 225' of line to retrieve an over turned boat rushing down the river. This is a practice that could be talked about under a different thread in more detail.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 12th, 2005, 7:47 pm 
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I have tried high and low lining attachments to the boat, including the bridal system Bill Mason promoted. I now prefer attaching to the end of the boat, above the mid point.

When you pull from above the midpoint, the boat leans towards you slightly, and that can release the chine and let the boat accelerate and turn the way you want it. When tugged and the boat turns towards you, the upstream chine is slightly raised, which is good because the current slides underneath. This is a quick move, but don’t underestimate its advantage of chine release. The force of water slamming into the side of a boat is very strong, and makes or breaks your attempt.

The trickiest thing is lining upstream (which happens when traveling downriver and upriver), and having the boat carve out and ferry away from you when you don’t want this to happen. If the pull point is too low, the chine digs in and the boat can actually do a ferry away from you. This is not a trivial matter. It can mean a disaster if the boat pivots away from you. Once cutting away from you, the current on the now upstream chine is so strong, you will have to either let the upstream line go and retrive with the stern line, or play it and the stern line out very fast and hope to re-pull the boat towards you when the stern and bow re-align with the current. You can lose the boat or pin it very easily in rock gardens.

Unfortunately the Mason bridal is very guilty of this effect when the boat is heavily loaded. When heavily loaded the chines are grabby. However, if the boat is lightly loaded, the current can slip under the chines and slide across the current, and this is when the bridal works. In Mason’s stellar Waterwalker film (available on video), there is the famous bridal rigged tracking upriver scene. But note how lightly the boat is loaded. The bridal can be used to advantage if you are very skilled, and specifically design a lining/tracking maneuver to have the boat ferry out away from you into the current. In the scene, Mason was deliberately letting the boat ferry out. This can carry it out and around an obstruction. But beware, because the boat will keep on ferrying unless you can release that chine. Note also the lenght of the lines Mason was using, i.e. very long!. This is only for very high skill sets. Don't emulate without serious experience in lining.

The factory drilled grab loop holes are a little high for my preference. The sideways pull tilts the boat too much and, if not careful, can actually tip the boat over due to the inertia of the load and a digging of the chines, arresting the side slip. It really is a fine balance. I have drilled lower and inserted the ½ inch PVC tube, but stayed above the mid point.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 12th, 2005, 8:32 pm 
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HOOP_ wrote:
The factory drilled grab loop holes are a little high for my preference. The sideways pull tilts the boat too much and, if not careful, can actually tip the boat over due to the inertia of the load and a digging of the chines, arresting the side slip. It really is a fine balance. I have drilled lower and inserted the ½ inch PVC tube, but stayed above the mid point.


I was going to ask if you guys had drilled holes and epoxied in PVC lining holes. That seems the best idea to me too. I don't much like the bridle under the boat to get hung up on stuff.

PK


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 Post subject: my 2 pesos
PostPosted: February 12th, 2005, 9:57 pm 
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Upstream is called tracking, downstream, lining.

For attaching painters/lining ropes PVC pipes work. Tugeyes are better but expensive. You can make almost the samething by using a 3/4 PVC electrical conduit box adapter epoxied into your holes. They can be made waterproof with a short length of medical tubing to fit between the two sides.

Image

http://tinyurl.com/44n59

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 12th, 2005, 10:14 pm 
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There are a number of good points HOOP has made, and I think the one most important point was, " This is only for very high skill sets. Don`t emulate without serious experience in lining. "

I think knowing when and where you can use different set ups with different load weights from a light solo boat or heavier loaded tandem in different conditions isn`t learned over night. Also knowing when to pull and when to release. And if working with a partner, good team work and using hand motions to communicate over the noise of the rapids.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 12th, 2005, 10:53 pm 
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THese are excellent observations, Hoop - the difference between lining heavily loaded boats vs lightly loaded ones. Also, the volume/speed of the water factors in as well. This re-iterates the need to practise under varying conditions.

For the rapids shown in that Skandinavian area, water volume doesn't seem to be a factor. Probably not a bad place for experimenting....


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PostPosted: February 13th, 2005, 8:51 pm 
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As we all know there can be a number of ways of doing something. I was just looking at tips and tricks here on this site. And I pulled up bow lines to see something interesting. The instructions on how to attach grab loops to a roylex boat. Interesting ! I think in the case of a roylex boat this method is over kill. A couple of things..... given the holes are so very small and the rope or strap fills most of the hole and it is so very close to the top and front of the boat, using inserts are not needed . Also the placement of the holes in these instructions are to far back, the rope is somewhat tight against the bow. The loops need to extend out more so the hand can easily grab it.

Yes, tugeyes or PVC should be used on a thin hulls of layup boats where you need to reinforce the laminate and if you`re going through the floatation tanks.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 14th, 2005, 3:09 pm 
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personally I use lines of about 20 meters, and a webbing bridal which sits very tight to the hull, as so far has not snagged.

Yes, shorter lines are easier to use, but it is easy enough to shorten a long line. Make sure that the rope will be okay for Z drag rescues for if (when) you get the boat pinned!

The extra length is needed when lining downstream because you really need to be able to swing the canoe into an eddy, and if that eddy is out of reach of your rope than you will have to run downstream with a loaded boat on the end of a line. Trust me, this is not fun, and likely to be the most dangerous thing you will do with a canoe.

In fact tracking and lining is the reason I carry 3 knives (you WILL get the rope tangles about your ankles at some stage), and why I would paddle or pole/snub in preference to lining. Though I must admit, when it goes well it is very satisfying.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: June 9th, 2007, 5:21 pm 
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We did some lining last week on the lower Coulonge and I was thinking about the problem with slack rope entangling ankles. The required length of rope is always varying and I started thinking about those retrievable dog leashes...
I know it would be one more piece of gear but loaded with 15m of 6mm rope it might do the trick.
Any thoughts from mechanical engineers or dog owners?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: June 11th, 2007, 5:04 pm 
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[quote="kingfisher"]I was thinking about the problem with slack rope entangling ankles. The required length of rope is always varying and I started thinking about those retrievable dog leashes...
quote]
Now there's a thought. I'm assuming you mean retractable leashes? I love the one we use for our Malamute.
Kingfisher,I like the idea, the concern I'd have is if the canoe started to get away from you (and it will!) you'd have to let go of the end with the handle which could very possibly get snagged on the bottom as the canoe swings around.
:doh:
I try real hard not to have any knots at the end of my painters,throw bag ropes,lining ropes for that very reason. even though they are floating ropes.

Hugh

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PostPosted: June 12th, 2007, 12:29 pm 
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On the surface the retractable lining rope sounds like a good idea, but I'd hate to rely on the retraction mechanism to retract when I needed it to, and even more importantly to hold when I really needed to pull on a line. Unfortunately, in my experience, lining relies heavily on experience telling you when to pull, and when to let the canoe do it's own thing on a loose leash. I just don't see how a simple retractor would fulfill all those needs nearly as well as your fingers do. Unfortunately, there is no good answer as to how long is perfect, because each lining situation as you point out needs a different length. So I see the skill of retrieving line, and casting it out efficiently, and not allowing it to tangle while working it as a well developed skill set

I'll be looking forward to HOOPs thought on this. I'm sure he's been involved in nearly every sort of lining/scenario that could possibly exist. OK, maybe not all, but surely most!!!

PK


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PostPosted: July 16th, 2007, 12:50 pm 
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As an engineer and dog owner... I'd say the retractable leash idea is going ot be very hard to successfully execute.

As PK pointed out, getting it to do the right thing at the right time is an issue. The dog leash locks are cammed so once its locked you can't release it without releasing the pressure on the line. Also the locks are NOT strong. I've had more than one of the largest size break when malamutes are on them.

The retractors don't like wet line, or sand or other stuff in the works (again from experience with dogs on the lines.)

Finally the handle is harder to hold and apply a lot of force to than a decently sized (diameter) rope or piece of webbing.

Not to say it can't be done, but that it'd have to be carefully designed from scratch rather than just loading the line on the existing leash retractors.

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