It is currently November 18th, 2019, 3:11 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 10th, 2009, 9:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: November 24th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 260
Location: Buffalo, New York USA
Timothyj wrote:
Since there are dangers involved with painters, is it necessary to have 50' of rope on either end of the boat?


We have painters in all our canoes, we just daisychain them to shorten the length. Works great, keeps the lines short and tight, lessens entanglement, and can quickly release to full length. In the end you have a little "pigtails" in the bow and stearn.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 10th, 2009, 9:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: October 25th, 2005, 8:24 pm
Posts: 654
Location: Stillwater, Minnesota
Never used the daisy-chain before...that's kinda cool. Back in the day I think I started with 50' painters but went down to 25' because they were easier to manage and less of an entrapment risk. I can't recall any situations where we had the need to extend them.

A friend of mine that trips with me regularly is also a climber - a sport I don't do. I have to say the knowledge gained from climbing in terms of handling ropes, knots etc.. is very valuable. This comes from both necessity and frequency. Seems every year I learn a couple knots I didn't know....an then re-learn them the following years. How did you do that again?

Anyways, there's probably a correlation between one's rope handling skills and the appropriate length of a painter.

_________________
"Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made." - Kant


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 11th, 2009, 10:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: November 23rd, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1981
Location: Coldstream, Ontario Canada
Peter K. wrote:
I can't resist -- this is one of those "best length of a paddle" type debates. I can only add the following thoughts:
* it depends on whether you are play boating or tripping. Painters are an unnecessary hazard in a play boat. Invest in a cow tail and a quick release harness for it. A lot of us got rid of our painters after a death on the Dumoine a couple of years ago where the fatal error was reported as entanglement in a painter;
* for tripping, maybe short ones under bungees on the deck plates. For lining and tracking use your throw bags if you need something really long;
* NEVER put a knot or a loop in the end of a painter. It is an entrapment hazard;
* an alternative to the bowline is the figure 8 on a bight. It looks cool, will never come undone -- but uses an amazing amount of rope to tie.



A lot of very good comments made in this thread, but I really like Peter's comments here....
Painters on play boats..... very unnecessary, I concur 100%!
Throw bags..... on either end when you need that extra lenght, and using binners to attach.

As far as painters lenghts for tripping..... a good rule is 1-1/2 - 2 times the lengtht of the boat.

Someone else mentioned something that I don't use anymore.... And thats a swim belt with throw bag. I know of one such event that a raft guide died because he was wearing it. And more so.... I could have died with one that I was wearing in a bad swim in class IV plus water...... the rope peeled out as I was being worked in a hole. Although I've been trained as an SRT one could really see the issue's when one is not awear that the rope has peeled out..... it happen very fast! And you may not know why you're being pulled down before you can react.

_________________

Al Greve http://www.canoewateradventuring.ca South Western Ontario's canoeing specialist



Last edited by Alan Greve on January 11th, 2009, 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 11th, 2009, 8:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: November 22nd, 2008, 4:30 pm
Posts: 32
Location: Moosonee, ON
Thanks! There's some really valuable information here. I took a one day moving water safety course a couple years ago, and had to practice swimming in rapids and the rest, but the thing about facing and aggressively climbing up into the sweeper was never mentioned. Knowledge like that could really save a life. Thanks HOOP.

I'm still not entirely sure what the idea painter length is for me. Since I currently have 50 footers on there now, if I go with the canoe-length-and-a-half rule, that'll put them at 25', so I can just cut one of those 50' ropes in half and I'm done. I'm also going to see about installing little bungees to hold down the rope. That sounds like a good idea.

Someone recently asked me, "Whatja get for Christmas?"
"Floatation for my canoe." I said. He raised his eyebrows and replied, "Well, whatever floats your boat."

I'm looking forward to the big difference floatation will make. A few times we were pretty swamped and depended on the floatation of our Sealline bags to paddle to shore. After one large rapid which we were quite successful in navigating, the boat was full of water. We didn't capsize, but since my partner was a bit heavier than me, and all the floatation in the middle, the canoe was sinking at the stern. Since we were out of the rapid, I did what any good friend would do, I told him to jump out. I was surprised when he obeyed. Once he was out, however, my end then started to sink. I had to 'cowboy' the middle of the canoe sitting on the yolk right between the two packs. The canoe, being filled with water, handled like a tank, but it was afloat. I solo'd it in and my partner helped by swim-towing me with one of my huge 50' painters.

It was a fantastic moment because it was the largest rapid we had run yet, and the rapid itself didn't beat us. Just some floatation difficulties required the ejection of a pilot. :D After that I knew we had to get floatation before the next trip.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 11th, 2009, 8:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: November 23rd, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1981
Location: Coldstream, Ontario Canada
Although most WRT and SRT programs will have you swim into a man made strainer so as to give you an idea of what you're up against in current and what you have to do to swim over it. One must remember that in the real world trees have limbs and often broken limbs..... And many of them! :( So it goes with out SAYING you don't want to be any where up river of any such strainers....simply put they're death traps and it doesn't matter how hard and fast you swim into them.

_________________

Al Greve http://www.canoewateradventuring.ca South Western Ontario's canoeing specialist



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 11th, 2009, 9:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: January 29th, 2007, 10:19 am
Posts: 2461
Location: Just outside the Blue Line
Alan Greve wrote:
One must remember that in the real world trees have limbs and often broken limbs..... And many of them! :( So it goes with out SAYING you don't want to be any where up river of any such strainers....simply put they're death traps and it doesn't matter how hard and fast you swim into them.


Alan, that is the take home message that all beginners need to hear. Glad to see it expressed so eloquently. :clap:

_________________
“We can have great disparities of wealth or we can have democracy. But we cannot have both.” - Former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 11th, 2009, 10:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: October 2nd, 2002, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1155
Location: seattle, Washington USA
Well put, Alan. Strainers are to be avoided at all costs. There still seems to be some confusion about the difference(or not) of painters and lining/tracking lines. I consider the two separate. A painter that is long enough to be used for lining, is going to be too long IMHO not to be an entrapment risk. While I agree that on playboats painters, even short ones, may be a danger, I don't see that for tripping, they should be longer. Dumping a loaded tripping boat in a Class 3 rapid, is just as risky, if not more so than dumping a playboat in the same circumstance.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 11th, 2009, 10:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: January 29th, 2007, 10:19 am
Posts: 2461
Location: Just outside the Blue Line
My feeling about painters is that short ones should always be firmly attached to each end of the canoe for any self-rescue scenario that may arise, even on a day trip on calm water. It'd feel pretty cumbersome to swim a swamped canoe to shore while I was holding a gunwale with one of my swimming hands.

Anything longer than 10' seems potentially dangerous to me. I cut 25' off the end of a 100' hank of yellow braided polypropylene rope to make two painters. I tied a hand-sized loop tied in the end of each painter with a double figure eight knot which probably makes them about 10' total.

The other 75' stays in a canoe pack with the rest of my rope and such. It's real light (it floats) so it doesn't add any excess weight. If and when I ever need to line the boat it won't be in an emergency situation. I'll have plenty of time to dig out that rope, which can quickly become two very long painters, 50' each if looped to the other painters already on the boat. In the meantime, it makes a nice ridge line for my tarps, with the excess hanging in a coil.

If you are really paranoid about a loop in the rope end snagging on you, you should at least put a large stopper knot (a double figure eight tied without a usable loop works better than anything ever devised) in the end of the rope. No stupider way to die than to have the end of the painter slip through your cold, wet hands as your canoe blows out of reach.

_________________
“We can have great disparities of wealth or we can have democracy. But we cannot have both.” - Former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 11th, 2009, 10:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 3469
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Quote:
If you are really paranoid about a loop in the rope end snagging on you, you should at least put a large stopper knot (a double figure eight tied without a usable loop works better than anything ever devised) in the end of the rope. No stupider way to die than to have the end of the painter slip through your cold, wet hands as your canoe blows out of reach.


I'm not sure about the end knots in a painter but I am sure you don't want any in lining ropes.

I also vote for shortish painters 20 feet perhaps, just long enough for easy lining/landing and something to grab in a self-rescue situation. For "real" lining situations throw bags or other much longer ropes.

_________________
"What else could I do? I had no trade so I became a peddler" - Lazarus Greenberg 1915


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 11th, 2009, 10:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: January 29th, 2007, 10:19 am
Posts: 2461
Location: Just outside the Blue Line
recped wrote:
I'm not sure about the end knots in a painter but I am sure you don't want any in lining ropes.


They wouldn't make sense in a lining rope since you should never really "reach the end of your rope" in a lining situation. However, I'm no expert on lining as I run everything I encounter on my trips. :wink:

_________________
“We can have great disparities of wealth or we can have democracy. But we cannot have both.” - Former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 12th, 2009, 1:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 3469
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
I frequently come to the "end of the rope" when lining, it's part of the process if you use two lining ropes especially if you have two people doing the lining.

I prefer to line over portage and run over lining but I draw the line at gnarly class IV's or pretty much any class V's. With my distaste for portaging that means at least some tricky lining on most trips.

_________________
"What else could I do? I had no trade so I became a peddler" - Lazarus Greenberg 1915


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 12th, 2009, 2:40 am 
Offline

Joined: October 2nd, 2002, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1155
Location: seattle, Washington USA
My lining and tracking technique is to use one rope, the upstream end tied as a bridle or to a lining loop low on the stem, the other to a thwart. With one rope, you never run to the end, you're always working on a bight. Its easier using one rope if you're doing it by yourself.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 12th, 2009, 7:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: May 24th, 2003, 8:38 am
Posts: 1329
Location: St. Thomas, Ontario
The painter will, in most situations, be the lining rope. NO KNOTS IN LINING ROPES. A knot will get caught between rocks and all heell will break loose. When the knot gets trapped between rocks on shore it will become a trip hazard, you will not be able to free it with the force on the canoe being pushed downstream - at the very least.
If the canoe gets away from you the knot could get caught between rocks midriver causing the canoe to submerge in the current.
The same needs to said of throw bags. NO KNOTS IN THROW BAG ROPE, for all the same reasons. A knot trapped between rocks on a piece of safety gear will quickly render it useless, with potential life threatening results.
I can't think of single reason to break these rules.

_________________
Pack it in. Pack it out


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 12th, 2009, 9:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: January 29th, 2007, 10:19 am
Posts: 2461
Location: Just outside the Blue Line
recped wrote:
I frequently come to the "end of the rope" when lining, it's part of the process if you use two lining ropes especially if you have two people doing the lining.

I prefer to line over portage and run over lining but I draw the line at gnarly class IV's or pretty much any class V's. With my distaste for portaging that means at least some tricky lining on most trips.


:oops:

I should have noticed that the original question was WW related. My painter theories are primarily for lake/quiet river tripping.

My rapid running comment was strictly tongue-in-cheek. I run everything I encounter only because I don't trip on anything with Class III or above. I'm a WW weenie who considers a lot of Class II (at least the way it's rated most times) to be beyond my abilities.

Still, logic tells me that long ropes attached to canoes are a tricky affair. You don't need to have a knot in a rope in order for it to snag on rocks. Temporary loops caused by turbulence and such can form as can other snarls and rat's nests. As well, rope can get wedged between two rocks and compressed to a point where it will not release. This, in fact, is how some very effective rope hold-fasts are designed to work.

Good technique, it would seem to me, would be to keep tension on at all times and to avoid excess rope getting into the water at all costs. With extra long lining ropes, that could be a chore in and of itself.

_________________
“We can have great disparities of wealth or we can have democracy. But we cannot have both.” - Former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 12th, 2009, 10:19 am 
Offline

Joined: February 18th, 2005, 12:41 pm
Posts: 417
Location: Denver, CO
On my WW play boat and river tripping boat, I keep the painter lines about the length of the boat. I don't plan on lining.
I never got around to doing the bungee cord thing, so I just tuck the coils between the deck plate and the air bags (if I ever go without bags, I'll have to do the bungee thing I guess) - same concept - the painter ropes stay where I've tucked them, until I grab an end and pull out all the slack. After tucking the coils in, I make sure to keep a loose tail of two or three feet long - that way, if the boat is upside down, there is a tail of rope floating there for me to grab easily if I am going to self rescue, and it is floating there for a second boat to grab if I swim to shore and let someone else catch my boat. I'm not going to be doing river trips myself normally, and especially white water, so there is going to be someone else around to help if needed. I can't roll, so I swim if I go over. It seems to me that for towing a boat, either while self rescueing or for a second boat, you don't want too long a painter - too hard to control where the boat is being towed to. And you don't want too short a line either, or you wouldn't be able to keep some distance between you and your boat if self rescuing - the 3 or 4 times I've caught someone else's boat, I've mainly just grabbed for thier painter - to me that works better than pushing/bumping a boat into an eddy, though I've done that too - at least with a painter, I have the option.

I use 11 mm polypropelene line - similar to climbing rope in construction, it has a decent grip. I use a bowline to tie the painter to the boat, but I tie it with a long enough tail so that I can tie a double fisherman's around the loop as a safety knot. Even if the bowline came loose, there is no way for the painter to come completely untied.

Most of my tripping is lake to lake, so I don't need a painter set up for running rapids, and I don't need one for lining. The painters (bow only) on my tripping boats are 3 or 4 feet longer than the length fo the boats. I use a "knu-pack" type of system for portaging, and the painter line becomes a "handle"- that kind of dictates the length I use. Having a line a few feet longer than the boat works for tieing it up at camp - I take the boat up on shore and run the bow rope around a tree and snugly back to the stern, so the boat can't get blown around much in a wind.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group