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 Post subject: Re: sick boat race
PostPosted: November 12th, 2009, 9:51 am 
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Joined: November 23rd, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1981
Location: Coldstream, Ontario Canada
I agree landing a drop of any description flat is not a good thing even on aerated water..... let alone green water. Ouch! :o Its key to keeping that boof stroke or back stroke depending on your intended move for that final second. As I'm sure your're aware there are many types of drops from ramps, boofing verticals, auto boofs, seal launches, and that not to mention the tricks that can be done off them. That said.... with the right amount of air time and forward momentum, one shouldn't land the drop flat, take Hogs Back Falls in Ottawa or Agers Falls on the Moose River in Up State NY, I've never dropped them flat as you'll always get an angled entry into the foam. A good place to practice your stroke timing in the Ottawa area is Trick or Treat on the Quyon creek in Quebec just north of Ottawa. Its the prefect place to work on your flat spins off the lip as there's no down river issues. :D Also a great creek to work on drops is the ledge section on the Upper Tellico in Tennessee, its a great place to head in early spring.

I guess it comes down to personal preference to edges or more rounded bottom boats as for a creek boat..... Its funny as I had this very same conversation with a couple of accomplished kayakers on the weekend after a pool session, and they were both in agreement about the terms of edges when paddling creeks. They both agreed that grabbing a micro eddy on a steep technical creek in a displacement hull was harder as their move into the eddy wasn't as fast as the boat wants to slide in compared to carving in. I know for me I want to know that I'm going to be able to grad that MUST make eddy turn into a micro just before an unexpected feature that I want to.....and or NEED to check out before proceeding.

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Al Greve http://www.canoewateradventuring.ca South Western Ontario's canoeing specialist



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 Post subject: Re: sick boat race
PostPosted: November 12th, 2009, 9:27 pm 
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Joined: February 19th, 2004, 9:53 pm
Posts: 1451
Location: Atlanta
Just another point about "edges". According to Corran Addison, formerly a slalom kayaker and a famed playboat designer, whether and how an edge fosters wave surfing depends on how sharp the edge is (and also on presence of certain fancy edge shapes). A sharp chine is in some ways actually LESS grabby than a prominent but rounded chine.

Slalom boats, including my Dagger Zealot, do not have sharp chines. The chines are prominent but somewhat rounded. This would also characterise the chines on OC-1s such as the Dagger Ocoee. These somewhat rounded chines carve very well, but they are a bit resistant to spinning on a fast, green wave.

If I remember what Corran said about this, it has to do with what happens when water slips from under the boat and away from the chine. A sharp chine somehow lets the water away with less drag on the boat.

I certainly agree that round boats with no chines do not handle creeks and eddies as well, and do not wave surf well. I got my start in Hahn c-1s. I prefer some flatness in the bottoms of my boats, especially from midpoint into the stern, and I prefer somewhat rounded chines designed for good carving.

Oh, and a reminder. All whitewater boats are displacement hulls first. Some whitewater boats have the flatness and chines to make them plane effectively on fast waves. So called planing boats do not plane on creeks. An excess of planing characteristics seems to be something that serious southeastern creekers just do not want. Their boats have flattish bottoms, visible (though not "sharp") chines, and flattish sides, all for snappy handling. But to call these planing boats is rather an exaggeration, because in a playspot, they are very mediocre planers.


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 Post subject: Re: sick boat race
PostPosted: November 13th, 2009, 11:24 pm 
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Joined: February 19th, 2004, 9:53 pm
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Location: Atlanta
This link shows Corran's Dragorossi creek boats, flattish on the bottom, with definite but not sharp chines.

http://totalwhitewaterfun.blogspot.com/ ... -mass.html


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 Post subject: Re: sick boat race
PostPosted: November 15th, 2009, 4:14 pm 
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Joined: October 25th, 2002, 7:00 pm
Posts: 170
Location: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
Alan Greve wrote:
I agree landing a drop of any description flat is not a good thing even on aerated water..... let alone green water.

But sometimes you pretty much need to land them flat in order to clear the hole or not to piton in the landing zone.

Quote:
When you boof, you generally land pretty close to flat, and depending on the height of the drop, the aeration of the water, and the size and shape of your boat, this can present problems. Long boats and boats with flat hulls will tend to smack the pool harder than shorter/rounder boats- so when you're coming in flat or near flat from height, it will pay in spades to be able to get into crash position in a hurry.
Source: http://www.chrisj.winisp.net/articles/boofing.htm

I don't totally agree with the above, and see some smaller boof moves allowing the boat to go near vertical before splashdown, but ..... Yes, I should get out to Quyon Falls and practice (Thanks!) and in part to practice my crash position.

Image


It is a bit surprising to see how flat the hull of Corran's creekers have become considering some of the statements that I seem to recall him making in the past. Not the best example below, but here is a Q&A with him:
Quote:
" 3. What are the advantages, if any, of a "displacement" hull?

Bouncing over rocks, and landing boofs. Flat hulls land hard, Also, they tend to "trip" on rocks and slides, and hang on boofs. This boat just sort of "mushes" over everything, which is what you want. The last thing you want is some edge hanging and deflecting you off a-la-CFS at crazy angles and into places you don't want. Remember, the Sniper is designed for low volume stuff... Steep big drops and minimal water.

5. What is the purpose of the grooves in the hull?

To compensate for the fact that its a displacement hull and most kayakers are playboaters. It give it that little playboat feel when carving. Without them it really felt like paddling a Freefall or a Topolino. This just gives it that carvy feel without loosing all the good reasons for a displacement hull.

6. What is the purpose of the planing stern hull?

Edge release. Actually, its also displacement, just has release edges. The last thing to be hanging up over a drop is the stern. You want it to pop free and release as you boof. Makes the boat boof super easy and turn super fast, but the hull itself is still rounded and soft for landings."
Source: http://playak.com/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=43

That is from 2003 and of course things do evolve/opinions change. One thing that has changed is that most kayakers that are potentially buying creek boats today have become familiar with planning hull boats, in fact many have paddled nothing but those for their whole paddling career.

I just picked up my 1st creeker in many years last month and it has a semi-displacement hull. It is displacement all the ways at the extreme bow-end, and this is a good thing!
Quote:
Be aware that even if you're coming in at an off-flat angle, it's probable that your bow will deflect off of the pool- most boats are rockered and tend to porpoise violently toward the surface if you're coming in at speed. Use the crash position to minimize danger to yourself, and also to blunt the effects of a possible bow deflection.
Source: http://www.chrisj.winisp.net/articles/boofing.htm

When I took my seal launch vertebrae smack I was probably ~30+% off flat, but with the upturned nose on the boat my totally planning hull made contact with the water first and the boat just skimmed forwards and then down hard.

Both options certainly have compromises, and so I guess I should buy yet another boat and hire a caddie. If I decide to try to keep up with this guy then I'm going back to a total displacement hull :o


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 Post subject: Re: sick boat race
PostPosted: November 15th, 2009, 9:02 pm 
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Joined: February 19th, 2004, 9:53 pm
Posts: 1451
Location: Atlanta
:o Just have your spinal column replaced by a McPherson Strut.


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