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PostPosted: August 11th, 2005, 2:09 am 
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Joined: July 12th, 2005, 7:46 pm
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Location: Saginaw, Michigan, USA
I know I am repeating myself (or making you repeat yourself) . . more smoke . .
In my proposed layup:
1) Hybrid inner layer bow to stern
2) Hybrid football layer at a 45 diagonal (port to stern) to inner layer.
3) Biaxial 0 / 90 S-Glass bow to stern on each side overlapping on the keel.
4) A biaxial +/- 45 S-Glass bow to stern over the keel covering the side 0 / 90 biaxial cloths
If I were able to find a biaxial +/- 45 K/C cloth I would not need to lay the football layer diagonal (step 2). It does not seem to make sense that any manufacturer would make such a cloth since it is just two unidirectional fabrics of differing materials.
If I could find +/- 45 woven fabric, likewise I would not need to lay the football layer diagonal.
Substituting any woven fabric with a biaxial would be better (better in strength, not cost).

The hybrid I am looking at is a 0/+90 weave.
I have yet to locate any biaxial +/- 45 (or 0/+90 for that matter) claiming to be made of Kevlar, Carbon, Hybrid, E-Glass or S-Glass. I guess VectorPly could custom make one, I am guessing that would be pricey.


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PostPosted: August 11th, 2005, 2:41 am 
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Joined: April 27th, 2003, 10:25 am
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Lay up schedule sounds great.

Suggestion: Lay up as follows;
1- 45/45
2- football hybrid
3- full layer hybrid
4- 0/90 S glass
(#1&4 are interchangable)

The site you added/ mentioned for the hybrid has 45/45 stitched material with a mat backing which would be fine, lay the mat side down, don't want to squeegie over mat.

If you add the 45/45 you don't need to do the hybrid diagonal but you can if you want to and a butt joint would work.

You would be better off to bury the hybrid.

re: Custom ordering from Vectorply........ get a 2nd mortgage :lol:


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PostPosted: August 11th, 2005, 12:35 pm 
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Baixial with stiched matt would not be recommended. It would create bulk, but at the expensive of lots of extra weight. The mat portion will soak up resin lke a sponge.

There are basically two standard stiched biaxial fabrcis available... E-glass (6 oz, 9 oz, 12 oz, etc.) or Kevlar (but I don't see anyone stocking it anymore).

There is a huge shortage of performance fabrics at this time. The major aircraft manufacturers and the military has put a huge crimp in the carbon & kevlar markets. Prices for many carbon weaves has doubled in the last 6 months. Kevlar isn't as bad, but availability is very spotty. If you plan on building in the next 6 mo. to year you will be paying a premium and you may have to wait to get your orders filled.

A & P technology does make a biaxial carbon 9 oz fabric, but they may require a minimum order size (way beyond what a typical canoe would need).


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PostPosted: August 11th, 2005, 3:57 pm 
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Joined: July 12th, 2005, 7:46 pm
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Location: Saginaw, Michigan, USA
Bayport_Bob wrote:
Baixial with stiched matt would not be recommended. It would create bulk, but at the expensive of lots of extra weight. The mat portion will soak up resin lke a sponge.

There are basically two standard stiched biaxial fabrcis available... E-glass (6 oz, 9 oz, 12 oz, etc.) or Kevlar (but I don't see anyone stocking it anymore).

There is a huge shortage of performance fabrics at this time. The major aircraft manufacturers and the military has put a huge crimp in the carbon & kevlar markets. Prices for many carbon weaves has doubled in the last 6 months. Kevlar isn't as bad, but availability is very spotty. If you plan on building in the next 6 mo. to year you will be paying a premium and you may have to wait to get your orders filled.

A & P technology does make a biaxial carbon 9 oz fabric, but they may require a minimum order size (way beyond what a typical canoe would need).

Thank you for adding to the thread

I have been searching for a biaxial S-Glass without success. The book calls for use of "5.6 oz S-Glass three times the length of the canoe + 6 feet". The Kevlar called for is 8.9 oz the length of the canoe + 2 yards. He states that using a more heavy cloth will results in air bubbles in the laminate. (that is not a quote, just a paraphrase)

I have been trying to stay as close to those weights. As I have stated most venders just call it biaxial fabric (I have seen the term biaxial Knytex). Being my first attempt at building a boat I am trying to stay close to the technique and materials suggested in the book. I thought that even using the hybrid Kevlar/Carbon Twill was getting of the beaten path just a bit. Now I have this discussion of biaxial fabrics. Smell the smoking neurons now.

VectorPly has a cloth which is Aramid/eglass/carbon (+45,90,-45) of which they state:
"Total weight refers to reinforcement material only.
Stitching weight ranges from 0.15 - 0.97 oz/sq.yd. (approximately 2% of total weight) based on the stitch density. Stitch weight for multi pass infusion specific reinforcements ranges from 1.0 - 2.0 oz/sq.yd"
I must confess I do not understand this statement nor have I any idea of the cost.
This is without a mat (I did not really want a matted cloth just for the extra weight)

As it stands I am thinking about building a boat like this:
Version 1
1) Hybrid inner layer bow to stern (a deviation from the book, not 8.9 oz Kevlar and 5.5 oz)
2) Hybrid football layer at a 45 diagonal (port to starboard) to the inner layer. (a deviation from the book, and extra layer)
3) 5.6 oz S-Glass bow to stern on each side overlapping on the keel.
4) 5.6 oz bow to stern over the keel covering the side S-Glass cloths
Version 2
The changes I would like with similar weights:
1) Stays the same
2) Hybrid +/- 45 (like the VectorPly fabric without the e-glass) football layer (bow to stern)
3) Biaxial 0 / 90 S-Glass bow to stern on each side overlapping on the keel.
4) A biaxial +/- 45 S-Glass bow to stern over the keel covering the side 0 / 90 biaxial cloths

I can not find the fabrics for the 2nd version for steps 2,3,4 :cry:

Komatiq’s point is take about inner layer of 45/45 and outer layer of 0/90, however I like the idea put forth in the book about overlapping the thee layers of s-glass on the bottom of the boat and I am trying to keep the weight down.

If I am unable to find the fabrics needed for version 2 of the canoe I think I would guess that even version 1 would be stronger (however not as light because of the extra layer of hybrid) than the materials called for in the book. Those being:
1) 8.9 oz Kevlar bow to stern (no detail given on weave)
2) 5.6 oz S-Glass bow to stern on each side overlapping on the bottom (no detail on weave)
3) 5.6 oz S-Glass bow to Stern the bottom (football) over side S-Glass(no detail on weave)

If anyone knows where I can find the fabrics for version 2 it would be a great help.


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PostPosted: August 11th, 2005, 5:02 pm 
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How much lamination have you done? Your plans for multiple lay ups of different fabrics sound great. But may prove to be difficult to do without problems or added resin weight.

You may want to make one "by the book"before trying the other more exotic layups.

_________________
Solo canoes and single blades, with a sail for those windy days...

...........O
......(___|/____)
.........../


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PostPosted: August 11th, 2005, 5:23 pm 
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Joined: April 27th, 2003, 10:25 am
Posts: 1351
http://www.compositesone.com/
You need it, these guys will either have it or tell you where you can find it. They have a head office in Minn so are close and can tell you where to find a local source for product.

jjoven is 100% right ....... keep it simple. If you go light and the boat needs to be stiffened... add some.

I believe I mentioned early on, if you can source a 45/45 bias S glass you don't need a football of hybrid.

Woven material is more than enough for what you need, it's a canoe not a battle tank. If you plan to run a lot of class 3/4 rapids built it tuff. If you are paddling the lake with the kids make it light.

Have fun.............. :wink:


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PostPosted: August 11th, 2005, 5:27 pm 
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Joined: July 12th, 2005, 7:46 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Saginaw, Michigan, USA
jjoven wrote:
How much lamination have you done?

Well none. I did rend at fiberglass canoe about 10 years ago :)
jjoven wrote:
You may want to make one "by the book"before trying the other more exotic layups.

I only get one shot at this and all the talk about biaxial fabrics and layup of the cloth diagonally started because I wanted something 'better' than just Kevlar and want to minimize the need or reinforcing ribs inside the canoe. If I go with version 1 the only changes are use of Kevlar/Carbon and an extra layer.


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PostPosted: August 11th, 2005, 5:57 pm 
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A good friend built many fiberglass laminated canoes using an Old Town Pack as a mold. His wife once built a fire too close and melted one side. Wayne didn't miss a beat.. He started laying up 2 sides from the unburned one and joining them with a seam down the middle.

His homespun proceedure was 3 layers of 6 oz E glass with a football of roving inside. Most of his canoes were polyester resin. His canoes became well known around his area and you still see them at canoe meets. Average weight was 26 lbs!

_________________
Solo canoes and single blades, with a sail for those windy days...

...........O
......(___|/____)
.........../


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PostPosted: August 11th, 2005, 6:03 pm 
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Joined: July 12th, 2005, 7:46 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Saginaw, Michigan, USA
Komatiq wrote:
http://www.compositesone.com/
You need it, these guys will either have it or tell you where you can find it. They have a head office in Minn so are close and can tell you where to find a local source for product.

jjoven is 100% right ....... keep it simple. If you go light and the boat needs to be stiffened... add some.

I believe I mentioned early on, if you can source a 45/45 bias S glass you don't need a football of hybrid.

Woven material is more than enough for what you need, it's a canoe not a battle tank. If you plan to run a lot of class 3/4 rapids built it tuff. If you are paddling the lake with the kids make it light.

Have fun.............. :wink:


I Tanks are not typically known for being light. This is an 18' family canoe which will be mostly run on slow rivers, lakes and ponds. Being in the Great Lakes State (Michigan) I may see if I can sink it in one of our larger lakes. I will be porting this thing to some of the Upper Peninsula’s more remote lake.
Keeping the weight down a important that is why even if I find some use some biaxial s-glass I would want it to be near the 5.6 oz total weight called for in the book if possible.
I noticed that VectorPly has an ' +45,-45º Double Bias' S-glass.

I have been thinking about using such a cloth over the for the bottom layer of S-Glass and sticking more to the plan as you have suggested.
Even if I could find 0/90 for the sides and 45/45 for the bottom it would not be too much of a deviation (at least not as much as using the hybrid twill)

All this talk about the materials makes me want to be out there getting the mold finished, alas we have rain and the first coat of drywall compound is still wet under the tarp.

Thanks again everyone.


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PostPosted: August 11th, 2005, 7:01 pm 
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Posts: 1351
Hey there, the link I sent for Composites One will work for you, they are a North American distributor for Vectorply ( & many others) so will be able to pass along a local dealer/retailer that can order in whatever you need in the way of fabrics.

They have a little over 30 dist centers in Canada and the US so often have a wide range of material in their inventory and will cut small lengths for your local dealer.

Hope that helps.........


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PostPosted: August 11th, 2005, 7:29 pm 
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Joined: July 12th, 2005, 7:46 pm
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Location: Saginaw, Michigan, USA
Thanks
I was just reading their website, I wish they had an online catalog. I guess I will have to use the telephone, what a chore. :)


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PostPosted: August 11th, 2005, 8:36 pm 
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Joined: August 11th, 2005, 9:30 am
Posts: 24
Location: Barrie, Ontario
I guess I'm into this one a little late but...

Texalium is cosmetic mateial only - "silver carbon fiber" is a huge misnomer, as it is aluminum coated fiberglass. In many ways it is not even as structually valuable as regular e-glass. Looks great though as an outer layer. Interlaminar shear strength is not very good, due to the aluminum's tendency to separate from the glass.

Carbon fiber and Kevlar are both available in +-45 Stitched materials, but as has been stated, there is a significant price penalty for this, particularly with carbon. S-glass is harder to find in this form. If you look around, you should be able to find some Canaidan sources, even in 60 inch. These materials really are well worth using, especially on a long narrow shape like a canoe.

Twill fabrics are moderaltly stonger than plain weaves but their advantage to the home user is good drapability and conformability, a huge advantage if it helps the laminator make good contact between layers.

Vinylesters can indeed come close to epoxies for physical properties and at a lower cost, but a well formulated epoxy will be more forgiving and allow a greater selection of work times. Both V/E and epoxy require UV protection, as vinylesters are generally epoxy based anyway.

As for stiffness, remember that it has as much or more to do with the thickness of the laminates involved than their individual fabrics. Generally, a well made glass laminate with a core (even a thin one) will probably be stiffer than a carbon laminate with no core. Note that it will not likely be stronger, however....


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PostPosted: August 11th, 2005, 9:07 pm 
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Joined: July 12th, 2005, 7:46 pm
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Location: Saginaw, Michigan, USA
Wow, that is a lot of good info.
Okay Texalium is out as it will just add weight.
aaronj wrote:
. . . These materials really are well worth using, especially on a long narrow shape like a canoe.

Are you talking about Carbon fiber and Kevlar +-45 Stitched materials, +-45 S-Glass, or any Carbon fiber and Kevlar.

Good to know about the twill fabric

aaronj wrote:
Both V/E and epoxy require UV protection, as vinylesters are generally epoxy based anyway.

I will be using an epoxy (probably Raka). What should be used for UV protection? UV protection is something I was going to worry about after the boat is finished.

aaronj wrote:
As for stiffness, remember that it has as much or more to do with the thickness of the laminates involved than their individual fabrics. Generally, a well made glass laminate with a core (even a thin one) will probably be stiffer than a carbon laminate with no core. Note that it will not likely be stronger, however....

I think for this project adding a core over the male mold is above my abilities, I suppose this could be done inside the canoe after the boat is built (like the reinforcing ribs).


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PostPosted: August 12th, 2005, 1:02 am 
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Bayport_Bob mentioned Raka had fabric available in a much earlier response he made to this thread.
I checked into the link he supplied and I think you might want to spend a little time going through there yourself.
They have a LOT of product, even a stitched kevlar tri-ax that's +45, 90, -45 and they list +45,-45 in light weight cloth.

http://www.raka.com/index.html

Tip of the hat to Bob !!! :clap:


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PostPosted: August 12th, 2005, 1:45 am 
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Joined: July 12th, 2005, 7:46 pm
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Location: Saginaw, Michigan, USA
Thank you for pointing the post out. We have covered so much I think I will need to re-read the thread.
I have been to their site and did see the fabric. In fact I received a reply to an email about their epoxy in which that exact fabric was mentioned. I just do not know where it would fit into my planned layup. I also have concerns that a triax fabric might be more difficult to work with or wet out.


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