Canadian Canoe Routes

Siren's Boat
Page 4 of 7

Author:  Jwinters [ July 25th, 2005, 6:55 am ]
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OK, so I asked S to tell us more about her paddling and got a book report. She learned to paddle from a book. A good book but a book nonetheless. So I guess we can set her skill level at a 4. Maybe Vitruvius has something to say about that. (Make note to check Volume 8). Yes, paddlers exagerate thier skill level but if they talk (or write) enough we get the truth.

Slowly the boat takes shape from vague musings. Do I detect a slight settling back to earth. Maybe one foot touching the ground.

Long, (as in stretched). How long is "long"? Maybe later. Better be wide. How wide is "wide"? Who cares so long as it has glide. Glide requires mass (Actually low resistance at desired crusing speed but that means physics and we don't want that) . But S wants light (polycarbonate skin with pre-preg carbon fiber skeletone stills sounds good) so S will supply the mass (She isn't saying how much so we must use our imagination). OH, pesky physics. Get thee behind me Jenny Craig.

Closing in on colours which is good because need to order drapes.

Likes asymmetry and Italian styling. GOT IT She wants a small Venetian Gondola.

Can you see it. S - half bird half woman - (Gender problem here. She thinks she is a rooster or maybe she wanted to be an oyster as a child. Wonder if this explains homophobic posts on another forum) floating down the Gatineau resplendent in straw hat and red and white striped shirt. OOPS Not good. Need Queer Eye for straight (or mostly straight) Monster. Horizontal stripes just won't do it. We got mass here. Need something slimming.

Not my field. You're on your own now S.

Author:  JEM [ July 25th, 2005, 7:10 am ]
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well this has been an entertaining thread so far!

:o :clap:

Author:  Jwinters [ July 25th, 2005, 7:34 am ]
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JEM wrote:
well this has been an entertaining thread so far!

And people ask me why I got into naval architecture.
Just a laugh a minute.

Can't help but like people like Siren1 who have a sense of humour and enjoy the back-and-forth (sort of a modified internet "The Dozens" or snaps) and don't get all puckered up over it. (I hope she isn't getting all puckered up).

Author:  JEM [ July 25th, 2005, 8:22 am ]
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Very interesting to see how desires meet design. Sort of a lump of clay you start smashing and cutting until it's just right.

Author:  Kim Gass [ July 25th, 2005, 8:43 am ]
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Why is the paddling ability question so important?

I would surmise that if one were to receive a boat that fit their ability to fly today in a few weeks they would be unhappily feeling unable to soar and stretch.

I am not a designer but an observer of people who paddle high performance boats with wide ranges of abilities. Sooner or later those who have settled for "the most stable" are the most unhappy and those who have learned to speak and listen to their wild horse are the most free.

Another Q; is a ladies weight all that critical? We often are victims of yo yo weight and it would be a shame to not be able to enjoy a craft if we have enjoyed too much pastry and bonbons. I can see an "ish" weight. Our leg length however never changes.

I do not wish to seem to challenge our noted designer here because he has the experience and the know how. I am enjoying this thread as I love watching the process evolve. I am watching another designer/builders combination elsewhere come up with a new design and note that it is with one person in mind that sparks the need for a new design.

I am so disappointed in JW not including physics. Physics is sexy. My students learn that about 20 years after they had to take it in high school and all remark that canoeing should be taught as applied physics in school. Is polycarbonate sexy? Does it feel good? I dont know...

Do you want to dance?


Author:  RHaslam [ July 25th, 2005, 9:29 am ]
Post subject:'ve already designed Siren's boat....the Barracuda.......I built one out of red cedar, beautiful.....better make sure one's canoe "ability" is on the high end.....this one will keep you on your toes as you zoom past every boat on the water, holding the paddle with a white knuckled death grip and screaming like you are on the back of a 500 cc two stroke 3 cylinder motorcycle.......

Author:  Boneli [ July 25th, 2005, 1:25 pm ]
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Kim Gass wrote:
It must be wood; the very soul of life.
A canoe that you build has passion and is a part of you.

Including the splinters in your hands the saw dust in your nose and the varnish going to your head. All of this must experienced in order for it to become part of you, an extension of your soul. Even if you make the paddle to provide "Forward Progression" that too needs to be experienced.


Author:  Kim Gass [ July 25th, 2005, 3:55 pm ]
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Well harrump, not all passion need be positive! There is plenty of passion when you tack a plank on and miss the rib entirely! Its usually evidenced by plenty of colorful language!

Author:  Jwinters [ July 25th, 2005, 6:11 pm ]
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Kim wrote;

[/quote]Why is the paddling ability question so important? [quote]

Because people differ both in their current ability and their objectives. If a designer creates a boat that requires more skill than the owner has or wants to develop he has an unhappy customer. Note that I also ask how good they want to get. If they plan to reach the upper levels of skill then the designer can anticipate that. If they just want to go for a float and never plan to get very good the designer can work around that. No one should be embarrassed to say "I just want a boat fro my annual trip with my kidsr." nor should the designer try to change that.

Some people do find themselves unhappy with poor performing boats but many do not. In fact, I would guess that most do not. Most paddlers simply do not use their boats a lot. One or two trips - many of them only a weekend long - keeps them happy. If the new owner ends up unhappy the salesperson or designer hasn't done his/her job properly or the new owner hasn't been perfectly honest.

Weight determines the paddling resistance of a boat as well a its handling. If the designer designs for a weight and the paddler over or under loads it he/she will not get the best performance from the boat. Typically paddlers can detect differences in performance for weights varying +10% over designed weight or -20% under designed weight. Since the majority of the displacement lies with the paddler the paddler can make a huge difference.

Note the spread of noticeable performance. Usually this will accomodate fluctuations in weight. Unfortunately one cannot design a boat with the same performance for all weights because wetted surface and wavemaking resistance increase with displacement. No one has yet figured out how to float more with less volume. We have Archimedes to thank for that. :)

The preceding does not even scratch the surface of the physics involved. If you really have an interest in this you might consider buying my book The SHape of the Canoe. Richard plans to have it available from his store at CCR. Ask him about availability. Sorry to do the promotion here but you did ask. :)

I don't mind providing simplified answers when I can but I am sure you can imagine the diffculty in trying to completely cover a topic that many fluid dynamicists use whole books to cover. For example, there are hundreds of books and documents and thousands of tank test reports on resistance alone. It took me over three years to develop KAPER, a performance prediction program for canoes and kayaks. Most of that simply reading the literature. )KAPER is used by Sea Kayaker magazine in its boat review articles).

One of the biggest problems for designers is figuring out what it is that paddlers "feel". Some just ignore it and design boats that they like and expect the paddler to fit the boat. Others try to design to fit a particular type of paddler or paddling objective and accept that not everyone will like it but those who do will like it a lot.

Some times you can't win. Fortunately homebuilt canoes don't cost a lot and the failures can disappear into the backyard weeds with no one the wiser. However, if you design a loser for a builder and he blows $50,000 or so on a boat that won't sell, you won't gte a lot more commissions.

Author:  Komatiq [ July 25th, 2005, 6:16 pm ]
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Including the splinters in your hands the saw dust in your nose and the varnish going to your head.

Barry, when frustration over the above mentioned set in what I've found helpful is to head down to the trim shop at one of the fiberglas builders I work with or head off to visit a couple of old friends who run their own fiberglas repair yards.
Usually doesn't require long in the glas dust and noxious smell of styrene and MEKP to have me running for the woodshop with a huge smile of relief and renewed determination.

If that isn't possible for you, or doesn't do the trick you might try gloves and a mask .............. :lol:

Author:  Jwinters [ July 25th, 2005, 6:17 pm ]
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RHaslam wrote:'ve already designed Siren's boat....the Barracuda.......I built one out of red cedar, beautiful.....better make sure one's canoe "ability" is on the high end.....this one will keep you on your toes as you zoom past every boat on the water, holding the paddle with a white knuckled death grip and screaming like you are on the back of a 500 cc two stroke 3 cylinder motorcycle.......

Good to hear the builder likes the boat.

This is an excellent example of what I was talking about. RHaslam obviously likes the boat but I got an e-mail from a fellow who built one and said he didn't believe anyone could paddle that boat across a mill pond. :)

I think he sold it cheap and bought a Shearwater. Much, Much happier paddler.

Author:  Jwinters [ July 25th, 2005, 6:23 pm ]
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I apolgise for the flood but I keep thinking of things after I press the send button.

Kim wrote;

Is polycarbonate sexy? Does it feel good? I dont know...

Depends. My wife thinks (OK, she just says) I am sexy and feel good. No accounting for taste. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Author:  Dan. [ July 25th, 2005, 7:02 pm ]
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Sorry to hijack, but where can I test paddle a barracuda?

Author:  siren1 [ July 25th, 2005, 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  mein boot

pssst -Kim!
let's moon him
s o m e o n e is having way too much fun-
sound of tinkly jack-in-the-box music
It's Tit for Tat time . . .
aaah, bollocks
Siren doesn't do big smelly fish with bad teeth
she's subtle
a night ninja
over indigo velvet waters

Chongas . . . Chongas . . . Chongas

So I guess we can set her skill level at a 4

new post
new post

p.s. OK, where do I go and test all these boats please? all at once?

Author:  Kim Gass [ July 25th, 2005, 8:34 pm ]
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I often ask students what they dislike about a boat. Its usually along these lines. "Its tippy".

Then I am mean and say that we can change boats but I would like their opinion of the boat after three days of the student being on the water with either that boat or another boat.

Its amazing how fast students can progress to a higher performing boat. Usually given an hour and a half, they can go from "not daring to breathe" to really putting on power, and now they love it.

The students range from knowing a J stroke a little to having never been in a solo boat.

Someone told me once when buying a kayak to get one that fit me well (mandatory) but made me a little uneasy when I tried to heel it or do a powerful stroke and actually paddle it for quite a while. That philosophy worked.

No I am not a once a year paddler for some time now though I used to be.

Maybe objective is as important as where one finds oneself currently sitting as long as one doesnt mind a little wetness along the way, and given the painting (Reubens?) I dont think that will be a problem.

Siren, take a Sunday drive down to Lake Placid..Pick a nice day for a paddle on Mill Pond and go see Charlie at Placid Boatworks on Station St across from the tourist train. The drive from Wakefield is less than two and a half hours..

No more to be said..let the boats speak.

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