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 Post subject: Siren's Boat
PostPosted: July 19th, 2005, 7:46 pm 
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Joined: October 16th, 2004, 11:11 am
Posts: 692
Location: Wakefield, Quebec
8)
Siren, removing her gloves . . . one finger at a time
tossing them on the floor

A friend
invited me out for an evening paddle
on the Gatineau
sadly- I had to decline.
Imagine, footsteps from a smooth black river
and no boat, poor dear. :(

Soh,
all you Boat-heads out there,
or maybe some N a v a l Architects,
(Lord knows they are hard to find these days . . . tsk, dying breed)
I am looking for someone to design me . . . a boat,
something . . . n e w w w w
if that is possible, :o
remembering that olde adage: “there is nothing new under the sun” :(

DESIGN ME A BOAT . . . that

1.‘remembers’ the canoe
.....but knifes through the water like a rowing scull

2. make it light, so light that I can heft it mid ships and let it balance on
.....my shoulder, walking down the street, to the river

3.make it long and sleek , give it l i n e,
....exaggerate . . . a Ferrari

4.invent an innovation, say-
....the ribbon of air bubbles- trapped under planks, V i k i n g ship.
....guide the forces, soundless glide.

5.choose a material that defies explanation, incorporate colour
. . . perhaps

6. I’ll need a new paddle ‘to match’ the boat 8)

7. we’ll haggle over the details l a t e r; such as weight of occupant, paddling habits, seating (I like cane . . only), trim do-dahs . . . a stripe?, a clever emblem.

8.I have questions and thoughts about keels, manoeuvrability and
....subtle weigh shifts, i d e a s :o

9.and of course a name . . .
....S1 ? S i r e . . . but I’m getting ahead of myself
.....with e n t h u $ i a $ m

10.Launch date: to pose 8) in the ‘Flotilla’ on Canada Day, 2006,
......Wakefield, Quebec.

Please PM your
proposal, c.v. and terms
I can wait . . .

. . . picking up gloves,
clicking away in my I-talian pumps-
8)

_________________
We are shaped and fashioned by what we love.
Goethe


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PostPosted: July 19th, 2005, 9:18 pm 
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Joined: June 20th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1483
There may be something you like at Geodesic Airolite Boats. The weight's right & they sure look distinctive. I have no idea what paddle would match though.


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PostPosted: July 20th, 2005, 7:03 am 
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Joined: September 28th, 2004, 6:52 am
Posts: 442
The fog swirls around Siren's rock from whence we hear a sound. What do we hear from the schizophrenic creature? The voice of the monster or the voice of the woman? We can't know. It seems like an e.e.cummings clone but his poetry ...........

Well, not everyone can find the shift key.

Siren1 has a wish list. She wants the world. Can we give it to her?

She writes:

Quote:
we’ll haggle over the details l a t e r; such as weight of occupant, paddling habits, seating


Our first problem. Naval architects consider these fundamentals not "details". Has to do with hydrodynamics, wavemaking, friction, eddy formation, ergonomics. Bummer. Just when you think life has gotten simple physics rears its ugly head and all the hydrodynamicists are dying out.

Would we design a car without knowing how many occupants it must carry or a house without knowing how many people must live in it? Do we care about their comfort? How they will use the car or house?

Oh My. How do we start?

Maybe we can create a design statement - something like:

“A boat designed for trips of approximately two weeks or less in duration, for average-sized male paddlers who will run most rapids up to Grade 2+ and will do a considerable amount of paddling on large open lakes.”

Or maybe something else. Why design a sprint racing canoe (it will satisfy most of her criteria) if she really wants a wilderness tripper?

She might try creating a list of priorites - something like:

1. How do you rate your current skill level? (1 if you have never paddled, 10 if you have forgotten more about paddling than most people will ever know).
______
2. What skill level do you expect to reach two years from now? (See above)
______
3. Where will you paddle? Will you paddle on the ocean, or on large lakes, or just around the cottage, warm or cold water?
___________________
4. What weight do you expect your boat to carry?
Total Weight _________
5. Arrange the following from most to least importance to you.

Aesthetics 1._____________________
Controllability 2..____________________
Durability 3.__________________________
Maintenance ease 4.__________________________
Price 5.__________________________
Seaworthiness 6.__________________________
Efficiency 7.__________________________
Stability 8.__________________________
Weight 9.__________________________
Other Requirements 10._________________________

With this the designer will have something to work with. Of course, you have to avoid asking for things that have little or no meaning. For example, What is "long"? Why does "glide" matter? Bubbles under Viking ships? And why priorities? Can't I have it all in one boat? Maybe, but can you afford it?

Always keeping in mind that if you want something new but don't think it is possible then you are already beaten and someone who doesn't know it is impossible is a better person for the job. On the other hand, t if you have the cash most dsesigners will make the time. :)

Keep in mind that your "perfect" canoe may not suit anyone else so you will have to pay the full freight which could - if you are really serious about a new and exciting material - reach into six figures (all to the left of the decimal). :o

Sounds like fun. Most customers have limited budgets.

_________________
Cheers,

John Winters


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: July 20th, 2005, 7:29 am 
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Joined: September 28th, 2004, 6:52 am
Posts: 442
Just to show I am serious about Siren1's post I gave the construction technique a little thought and I have some preliminary ideas.

I think a vacuum formed clear polycarbonate skin with graphics painted on the inside (or maybe even wood grain printed tissue paper laminated on) then unidirectional carbon fiber laid in diagonally for stiffness and a light layer of Kevlar over all for durability if Siren1 plans to do any wilderness tripping. Probably would not cost more than $50,000 Canadian if we can find a thermoformer and CNC company here in Canada willing to try it out. Otherwise big bucks for an American firm.

Talk about sexy. The clear polycarbonate would make the boat look like it had forty coats of varnish. We used to use a wood grain tissue paper in FRP boats years ago and the company that made it appears to be out of business so we may have to have that printed specially. On the other hand we could always pay an artist to paint the inside sort of like those airbrushed vans.

Well, maybe not the big bosomed girls but you get the picture.

As for something innovative for speed we need a wetting agent that we can dispense at the bow to reduce the local viscosity. Not sure how long it will take to develop it or even if we can develop a non-polluting formula but nothing ventured nothing gained.

Unfortunately, Siren1's restriction that the boat look like a canoe hampers me a bit. I was thinking of a SWATH vessel or an otrigger. But we won't be deterred.

Fun, No?


.

_________________
Cheers,

John Winters


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: July 20th, 2005, 8:03 am 
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Joined: July 12th, 2005, 12:33 pm
Posts: 36
Is Siren looking for a wooden hull/core or a one-off FRP type model?

This a one-of-kind or a production type thing? Will Siren build it or someone else?

Maybe my powers of translation are lacking. :roll:

This will be fun to watch for sure! :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: July 20th, 2005, 8:16 am 
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Joined: September 28th, 2004, 6:52 am
Posts: 442
Just to show I am serious about Siren1's post I gave the construction technique a little thought and I have some preliminary ideas.

I think a vacuum formed clear polycarbonate skin with graphics painted on the inside (or maybe even wood grain printed tissue paper laminated on) then unidirectional carbon fiber laid in diagonally for stiffness and a light layer of Kevlar over all for durability if Siren1 plans to do any wilderness tripping. Probably would not cost more than $50,000 Canadian if we can find a thermoformer and CNC company here in Canada willing to try it out. Otherwise big bucks for an American firm.

Talk about sexy. The clear polycarbonate would make the boat look like it had forty coats of varnish. We used to use a wood grain tissue paper in FRP boats years ago and the company that made it appears to be out of business so we may have to have that printed specially. On the other hand we could always pay an artist to paint the inside sort of like those airbrushed vans.

Well, maybe not the big bosomed girls but you get the picture.

As for something innovative for speed we need a wetting agent that we can dispense at the bow to reduce the local viscosity. Not sure how long it will take to develop it or even if we can develop a non-polluting formula but nothing ventured nothing gained.

Unfortunately, Siren1's restriction that the boat look like a canoe hampers me a bit. I was thinking of a SWATH vessel or an otrigger. But we won't be deterred.

Fun, No?


.

_________________
Cheers,

John Winters


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: July 20th, 2005, 8:26 am 
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Joined: July 12th, 2005, 12:33 pm
Posts: 36
I'm still lost in the sauce. :doh:

Material: Sky is the limit or does it need to stay in some boundary?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: July 20th, 2005, 10:39 am 
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Joined: April 27th, 2003, 10:25 am
Posts: 1351
Hey Siren, thanks for the challenge, I'm in for helping with the construction part.... :D

Quote:
if we can find a thermoformer and CNC company here in Canada willing to try it out.

John, no luck on the thermoformer yet but a Canadian CNC company is here.... http://www.cadenceengineering.com/
Friends at Airtech in California have an autoclave and do prts for NASA, should have capacity for a canoe.

Quote:
I was thinking of a SWATH vessel
There's another dangling carrot on the SWATH, come on John, come clean, whatcha got there?


Cheers,


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: July 20th, 2005, 8:50 pm 
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Joined: June 20th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 3145
I dunno. Placid Boatworks is pretty close with the Rapid Fire. 15 feet long, 24 inches wide, 27lbs. A mix of carbon fiber and kevlar thats done now in an unusual dark maroon or dark green or dark blue. Skin appears bottomless. Decks and thwarts are a special plywood in which the layers appear as a rainbow of colors. All meticulously sculpted and sanded, and that is another story in which the moral is you may not want to stand outside sanding these small parts... Twice the police visited on anonymous complaints of lewd behavior.

I bet it would be possible to add flecks of rainbow colors in the skin too. I have seen that done in a Flashfire..

I plan to airbrush my small solo in its next incarnation when it needs a new skin. Its just a painted hull. Or maybe I will do spatters but thats too modern for a wood /dacron boat.


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PostPosted: July 20th, 2005, 10:07 pm 
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Joined: October 16th, 2004, 11:11 am
Posts: 692
Location: Wakefield, Quebec
a sly smile . . . forming
(the tune of “you take the low road and I’ll take the high road”
f a d i n g into the background)

this program will be in 4 parts:

Part I - Cartoons
Part II - Ode to Vitruvius
Part III - In-nernet babble
Part IV – Boat Design (finally)
acknowledgements
Part I
Image
Oh waitaminut, I’m schizoid, better switch characters
JWinters said:
Quote:
The fog swirls around Siren's rock


Did someone say FOG ????
Image
Ah saiyd . . .Ah saiyd . . . hmmmm- better find me the real guy 8)
(watchit one of them has sticky button :( )
http://www.barbneal.com/wav/ltunes/foghorn/fogleg37.wav
:lol:
http://www.barbneal.com/wav/ltunes/foghorn/fogleg06.wav
:lol:

Part II

Yuh see JEM . . . .
There’s these 7 lamps see,
The 7 lamps of A r c h i t e c t u r e, it’s a book
Written by this guy . . .his name was Vitruvius long time ago
Maybe he had a degree, I don’t know for sure, but
remember, these people with degrees, they are assholes just like everyone else :D
They just think they are smarter assholes with their fancy nomenclature
and equations n’ stuff (Physics – bah. Gimme a showy sportscar 8) )
but every now and then, along comes a client . . . someone with money and an idea :o
who wants something, something beautiful, that they are willing to pay for
and the wise guy with the degree get’s a ‘comeuppance’,
Why it’s even happened to me, :(
It’s worse in real Architecture, cuz the stakes are really $high$ to suck everyone into your idea :o
and then get it built . . .the way it was in your . . your schizoid mind :o :o :o

JWinters writes:
Quote:
Our first problem. :roll:
Naval architects consider these fundamentals not "details". Has to do with hydrodynamics, wavemaking, friction, eddy formation, ergonomics. Bummer.
:roll:
And this is the best part JEM :wink:
Image
that's a Greek Lady
Image

Yeah that’s Vitruvius in a nut shell: :o
h u n t i n g the shadow, isn’t that great?
Translation: you need theory and practice (experience)
Aaaaaand
You have to LISTEN to what your client said!

Part III

“A boat designed for trips of approximately two weeks or less in duration,
Ah saiyd: an evening paddle on the Gatineau
for average-sized male paddlers who will run most rapids up to Grade 2+
Ah saiyd: I can heft it mid ships and let it balance on my shoulder,
walking down the street, to the river

and will do a considerable amount of paddling on large open lakes
.Ah saiyd: to pose in the ‘Flotilla’ 8)

Or maybe something else. Why design a sprint racing canoe
(here we go again) an evening paddle on the Gatineau
(it will satisfy most of her criteria) if she really wants a wilderness tripper?
(again) an evening paddle on the Gatineau
She might try creating a list of priorites - something like:

1. How do you rate your current skill level? (1 if you have never paddled, 10 if you have forgotten more about paddling than most people will ever know).
Siren is an Uber Athlete and paddling credentials posted loooong ago

2.What skill level do you expect to reach two years from now? (See above)
evening paddle to relax my nerves from dealing with all the goombah male construction workers on site all day and blogging all evening with . . . churlish hydrophysicists :o

3.Where will you paddle? -An evening paddle on the Gatineau
4.Will you paddle on the ocean, -An evening paddle on the Gatineau
5.or on large lakes, An evening paddle on the Gatineau
6.or just around the cottage, -An evening paddle on the Gatineau
7.warm -An evening paddle on the Gatineau
8. or cold -An evening paddle on the Gatineau :roll:

9.What weight do you expect your boat to carry? DESIGN ME A BOAT Total Weight = need to know basis :wink:

10.Arrange the following from most to least importance to you.

Aesthetics 1.She wants the world.
Controllability 2 She wants the world.
Durability 3.She wants the world.
Maintenance ease 4 She wants the world.
Price 5. the world.
Seaworthiness 6 the world.
Efficiency 7. the world.
Stability 8. the world please
Weight 9.She wants the world please and thankyou
Other Requirements 10. She’ll think of something :wink:

Quote:
With this the designer will have something to work with.
Of course, you have to avoid asking for things that have little or no meaning.

:roll:
Niiiice, belittle your potential client , works every time for an interesting commission :o

Quote:
For example, What is "long"?

=length, stretched, e x a g g e r a t e, you know, like that extra chimney on the Titanic :-?
=length, stretched, e x a g g e r a t e, An I-talian would know :wink:
Quote:
Why does "glide" matter?

Du-uh….
One stroke of the paddle . . and it gliiiiiiiiides until the next stroke 8)
Quote:
Bubbles under Viking ships?

:o not up to date yet on those Norsemen yet again analyzing their ancient craft?
Quote:
And why priorities? Can't I have it all in one boat?

Why not? I have it in my little car, the Spider 8)

Quote:
Maybe,

Sigh of relief, finally one crumb of positiveness :D
Quote:
but can you afford it?

Whatever Siren touches, turns to gold (have a look at how my client$ are doing in the ‘utopia$’ I have designed for them). . mine = the $prototype$
Quote:
Always keeping in mind that if you want something new but don't think it is possible then you are already beaten and someone who doesn't know it is impossible is a better person for the job.

Oh, so who do we have in mind . . lemme see, looking around :o
Quote:
On the other hand, if you have the cash most designers will make the time.
Keep in mind that your "perfect" canoe may not suit anyone else so you will have to pay the full freight which could - if you are really serious about a new and exciting material - reach into six figures (all to the left of the decimal).
Sounds like fun. Most customers have limited budgets.

Terms . . term$ 8)

Part IV
(now it's going to get good!)

Quote:
Just to show I am serious about Siren1's post I gave the construction technique a little thought and I have some preliminary ideas
.
See, gears now turning, good
Quote:
I think a vacuum formed clear polycarbonate skin

Cool . . oh, can I say that? 8)
Quote:
with graphics painted on the inside (or maybe even wood grain printed tissue paper laminated on

not so fast . . . cool your jets, Siren doesn’t do cheese
Quote:
then unidirectional carbon fiber laid in diagonally for stiffness and a light layer of Kevlar over all for durability if Siren1 plans to do any wilderness tripping.

Back to the Gatineau :( and it’s black velvet waters on a summer night, chasing moon beams . . .
Quote:
Probably would not cost more than $50,000 Canadian if we can find a thermoformer and CNC company here in Canada willing to try it out. Otherwise big bucks for an American firm.

= M a r k e t I n g and showbiz 8)

Quote:
Talk about sexy.

Siren swooning (no suitable smiley available)
Quote:
The clear polycarbonate would make the boat look like it had forty coats of varnish.

Quote:
We used to use a wood grain tissue paper in FRP boats years ago and the company that made it appears to be out of business so we may have to have that printed specially. On the other hand we could always pay an artist to paint the inside sort of like those airbrushed vans.

Sounds cheese but it’s not important right now.
Quote:
Well, maybe not the big bosomed girls but you get the picture.

Oh, so this is really where your head is at? :-?
Quote:
As for something innovative for speed we need a wetting agent that we can dispense at the bow to reduce the local viscosity.

Better get up-to-date with those bubble ribbons :o
Quote:
Not sure how long it will take to develop it or even if we can develop a non-polluting formula but nothing ventured nothing gained.

Outta my league :(
Quote:
Unfortunately, Siren1's restriction that the boat look like a canoe hampers me a bit. I was thinking of a SWATH vessel or an outrigger.

:o THIS outrigger bit has always been in the back of my mind . . I like it, the little ‘helpful’ appendage
Quote:
But we won't be deterred.

Good. Bon :D

Fun, No?
Fun Yes! & Thankyou.

p.s. re: car design: Of course, it’s done all the time, one horse- one rider
for the g l o r y

Acknowledgements:
Thankyou to MadKanuist for your input, I love the simplicity of your wooden boat
Thankyou to JEM for your questions and ideas :D
Thankyou for Ice-T and all his references which I have to study up on :o
Thankyou to Komatiq for his enthusiasm and enquiring mind :D :o
Thankyou to Kim Gass, a woman of my own heart, let’s do lunch sometime and good luck in Wabakimi: why anyone would want to go solo is beyond me I’d go stir crazy with no one to talk to . . . :(
AND A HIGH FIVE TO FELLOW SCHIZOID J.Winters xo.

_________________
We are shaped and fashioned by what we love.
Goethe


Last edited by siren1 on July 21st, 2005, 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: July 20th, 2005, 11:41 pm 
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Joined: April 27th, 2003, 10:25 am
Posts: 1351
Quote:
Thankyou to Komatiq for his enthusiasm and enquiring mind


My pleasure. :wink:

...... and thank you for helping to end my day with a good laugh and very sore ribs. :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: July 21st, 2005, 5:20 am 
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Joined: July 12th, 2005, 12:33 pm
Posts: 36
I think, no.... I know...I need a translater.


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PostPosted: July 21st, 2005, 8:56 am 
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Joined: January 10th, 2005, 3:03 pm
Posts: 198
Location: Wilmington, Ma
Hey Sireen,
For boats to stir your loins
You might consider Mr John Winter's Osprey in plain vanilla by Swift
http://www.swiftcanoe.com/canoes/catalogue/osprey.htm

or perhaps in cedar strip by the builder of your choice. http://www.greenval.com/osprey.html

or perhaps the Bell Wildfire or Flashfire
http://www.bellcanoe.com/products/canoes/wildfire.html
http://www.bellcanoe.com/products/canoes/flashfire.html

or as Kim mentioned the other fire boats by Placid
http://www.placidboatworks.com/

Something to think about is with an agreeable builder the appearance of a composite boat is only limited by your imagination and finances.
http://www.angstkayak.com/pictures/group_ed_org.jpg

Best of luck,
Tommy

PS I'd love to see what you end up with.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: July 21st, 2005, 9:01 am 
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Joined: October 31st, 2003, 9:51 am
Posts: 45
Here ya go S1!

- A multi-laminate construction, consisting of new and recycled materials.
- Featuring a lightweight corrugated core, wrapped in a light yet Hefty skin and bound together with multi-directional adhesive binding strips.

- This model can be outfitted with various accessories to suit personal tastes.

Image

*Paddle and PFD not included
*Weight restrictions apply
*Void where prohibited by Marine Laws
*Not suitable for the novices and sober

See dealer for details


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: July 21st, 2005, 9:05 am 
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Joined: September 28th, 2004, 6:52 am
Posts: 442
Quotes left out. Having trouble with the quite thing.

She's smiling. Good. So am I. Great fun.

Did she read the Odyssey? Hmmm. Which half is bird and which half is woman. Concern over the mentioning of breasts. Maybe a hint. Cartoon also a hint. But a blowhard. Hope not.

Good old Vitruvius. Did he design boats? Forgot to write about it I guess. Maybe she wants a house not a boat. Was Vitruvius an asshole? Who else? Gee, if everyone is an asshole then what? Read carefully? No help there. She said it. Everyone is an asshole. Turrette's?

She wants a sports car but no physics?????? Both feet firmly planted in mid-air. No physics? You bet. Maybe she will come down to ground. Newton, are you there?

Check your wallet, Siren1.


Hmmmm. Ask her to clarify her thinking and she gets testy. Maybe a problem here. Just a simple questionaire but tough to do. Problem with priorities.

Sorry, I wasn't around when she told everyone what a great paddler she was. More testiness? Delusions of grandeur? Have to watch out for that.

Churlish? Are insults good for the soul? Churlish? Pots and kettles.

She wants the world. :D

Nice. belittle the designer.

Stretched? From what to what? 100 meters long? 200 meters? Poor dumb designer. He asks, how long is long? She doesn't know. Just long. Doesn't read minds well. Not like architects. .

Glide? Does she mean inertia? But she asked for a light boat. Pesky old physics.
Maybe low wetted surface but she asked a long boat. Hmmmm. Increase length but wetted surface increases with corresponding increase in friction. Pesky old physics that we don't need. Maybe decrease displacement but "Need to know basis on that." Hints there? :D

Norsemen? Bubbles. Just moonshine, Siren1, just moonshine. More pesky old physics.

Her Spider is perfect? This may be easier than I thought. She wanted the world but settles for a Spider? Wonder what perfection means to her.

Everything she touches turns to gold? Isn't there a story about that? Lesson to be learned? Utopias? Delusions of grandeur to add to schizophrenia.

Do the impossible? Not me. Who can? If they can do it, is it impossible? OK, no problem, logic is not her strong point. No problem. Neither is physics.

She doesn't do cheese?

Marketing? Showbiz? Not hardly. If she has to ask the price she probably can't afford it anyway. Another hint that she can't afford this boat.

Swooning? A pushover ehh?


Well, I did say maybe not the big beasts. If she wants them she can have them. No accounting for taste..

Bubble ribbons again. Not a chance. Physics rears its ugly head again.

Wow. She likes the outrigger idea. Maybe she isn't as hard to please as it sounds.

OK, down to the crunch. Will she commission the design or not?

_________________
Cheers,

John Winters


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