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PostPosted: November 8th, 2006, 9:30 am 
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Joined: September 8th, 2006, 7:11 pm
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Location: winnipeg
Basically, I want a canoe that can handle big lake waves, swamping, and capsizing. I have thought of airbags and a spray deck, but that leaves me little room for storage, and the trim might be difficult.

I have a canoe that is a pain to portage anyway (XL Tripper), so I was thinking of using plywood and glass to make a watertight compartment amidships with a hatch on top. The idea is to basically build a box that fits the contour of the hull in light plywood. Then glass the seams, and install a hatch with a gasket. I would place this box in the canoe, and install the thwarts over it to hold it down. Hopefully, the huge volume of air in this chamber would keep the canoe floating enough to bail, and allow re-entry and bailing after a capsize.

Plan B is to permanently glass in two plywood bulkheads, and then make a removable cover for the deck. I still haven't figured out how I would seal this and still have it be removable. I might give up on ever portaging the boat again, and then a permanent job could likely be done.

If anyone has any suggestions or thoughts on this plan, feel free to comment. If it seems absurd, or I am missing something obvious, please let me know.
Thanks to all who contribute.


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PostPosted: November 8th, 2006, 9:59 am 
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Joined: May 24th, 2003, 8:38 am
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Location: St. Thomas, Ontario
Who am I to judge someone elses concept.
I do have a comment on the design, however.
IMHO you'll want a 'tunnel' on the bottom of this chamber. This will allow water to freely flow from bow area to steen area or vice versa.
I'd hate to see a canoe go down like the Titatanic as the stern area filled with water. :doh:

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PostPosted: November 8th, 2006, 10:01 am 
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Joined: June 26th, 2006, 8:56 am
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Location: Brantford, Ontario
no suggestions on the build part, but I noticed this year's scott canoes had storage in their bulkheads and the "door" is a large (6 in?) circular watertight lid (looks like marine-grade but plastic). Very cool feature and a good place for a spare set of clothes, shoes, wallet, and a few other essentials. It might be the easiest way to make the door part of your job watertight then just f-glass in the rest of the top and front of your box. Is there a honeycomb like f-glass available that would be a decent structural sheeting rather than plywood. if so it would probably stiffen as you coated it with epoxy. Just musing - I've never done such a thing.

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 Post subject: Excellent Idea
PostPosted: November 8th, 2006, 10:05 am 
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Location: winnipeg
Of course! So if a wave comes over the bow, both the bow and stern paddlers can each bail a few inches of water, rather than having the bow sink, and the whole boat being awash.

Maybe a length of pipe cut in half and then glassed in would be the easiest way to get this feature?

Alternatively, I might work on making some sort of equivelant for the ends (i.e. longer decks with sealed hatches . . . although this might be getting too ambitious.


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PostPosted: November 8th, 2006, 11:26 am 
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Joined: November 23rd, 2001, 7:00 pm
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Location: Coldstream, Ontario Canada
If you go mid-ship, how big is this ?How much is this going to weigh, thats what I'm concerned about? And how will you portage it?

Remember bow and stern bgas only displace water after the fact, so unless your running w/w I won't think you'll need them. Its the spray deck that will help you out and it doesn't take up any room.

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 Post subject: Different craft
PostPosted: November 8th, 2006, 4:41 pm 
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Joined: September 8th, 2006, 7:11 pm
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Location: winnipeg
I had given up on the idea of portaging. The canoe is heavy anyway (listed at 105lbs, I am sure it weighs more, as I can throw an 85lb canoe around, and Istagger under this one - maybe the skid-plates, oak seats). I have three other canoes for more traditional use, I was thinking of making the XL Tripper into a specialized big-lake canoe.

I was trying to create a craft that could have the ultimate seaworthy-ness of a sea kayak. I realize a deck would keep the waves out, but, in the even of capsize, it would flood and be difficult to recover from. Alternatively, lashing in barrels wouldn't keep the waves out. I suppose lashing barrels and having a spray-deck would be an option. I am trying to conceive of a canoe which, alone in a large lake after having been capsized, would still be able to be recovered. My experience with sea-kayaks lead me to think of watertight hatches.


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PostPosted: November 8th, 2006, 5:19 pm 
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Joined: November 7th, 2003, 5:57 pm
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Location: Cambridge Ontario
Heavy making heavier still. So now instead of car topping you will have to trailer it?

Just a thought.

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 Post subject: I don't know . . .
PostPosted: November 8th, 2006, 5:34 pm 
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Location: winnipeg
I suppose I was thinking this box might only weigh thirty pounds or so (realistic?). It doesn't have to be that rugged, as it will be protected by the hull. Maybe a layer of plywood and two layers of glass?

My roof rack has held 2 canoes many times, so this would just be the weight of two, in one awkward, hard to handle package.

Incidentally, I found a cool product at the lumberyard. It is called "wiggleboard", and is basically a mahogany plywood that is only laid down in one direction, so is extremely flexible on the long axis. I think this might form the core of the box.

I am realizing that the devil will be in the details, so I will scheme all winter, and build when the temperature allows for epoxy curing.

Thanks again for all the ideas.


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PostPosted: November 8th, 2006, 7:24 pm 
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Location: Grand Haven, Michigan U.S.A.
OK, I know you have a Old Town Tripper... but, how about changing your plan a little. You want an open water canoe... so lets get a different hull. You can buy a large (>17 foot tandem) composite canoe... expedition level kevlar. Then take the rails and thwarts out. Then build a deck using cedar with a fiberglass in the same method as a cedar strip canoe that covers most of the hull except the seat areas. Put comings on the deck surrounding the seating areas much like what Kruger put on his Monarch, Loon Seawind. The canoe without the factory thwarts, rails and decks would weigh essentially the same a the canow with the new cedar deck, but it would solve most of your problem.... ie: keeping the water out. You could use the same strip building technique to make the bulkheads beneath the decked central portion. They would add very little weight to the canoe, and the deck and bulkheads would make the canoe very strong. Then put a hatch in the top of the deck to get everything out... and voila... a canoe that offers almost all of the advantages of a canoe.... with almost all of the advantages of a kayak. Problem solved....

PK


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PostPosted: November 9th, 2006, 3:14 pm 
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Location: Grand Marais, MN
Float bags + Fabric cover

If you're not going to portage, why not a kayak? You could probably build a kayak for the price you'll sink into glass/epoxy/wood for this concept. Of course, then you'd have to use a double-bladed paddle instead of a real paddle. There are kayak designs that used single blades though.


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 Post subject: Good Ideas
PostPosted: November 9th, 2006, 5:16 pm 
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Location: winnipeg
OK, forst of all, as I visualized PK's idea, it was a really beautiful canoe. I saw a white sea-clipper with red-cedar decks. Very nice. It seems like the best answer for a seaworthy canoe. I don't know that I am personally willing to put the cash in for that project just yet. I was hoping to make something useful out of the Tripper.

The kayak suggestion is valid. My preference for canoes comes from the space and comfort in seating. I like to occasionally stand, and be able to move around a bit as when eating lunch on the water. Again, though, If I was buying/building a full boat, there would be more options. I was thinking of building this box out of the cheapest wood and glass I could find.

What it boils down to is that I like tinkering and experimenting with boats, and don't want to pay a high "tuition" in these attempts. I can afford to mess up the tripper, as it is canoe #4, but I would be hesitant to bet a lot on my own skill in design and craftsmanship.


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PostPosted: November 9th, 2006, 10:33 pm 
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The problem I see is flexibility.

The tripper is a pretty floppy boat, the plywood is pretty rigid.

When the hull flexes, going over rocks, quartering on waves, getting tied to the roof rack etc... I see the glued in pieces popping out.

I don't think the epoxy will bond well enough to the poly (sketchy at the best of times) to withstand all the twisting forces that will be put on the joints.

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PostPosted: November 10th, 2006, 5:22 pm 
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And considered using thick blocks of minicell - but that would be very pricey.

Thanks, as always, for the input.


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 Post subject: new vision
PostPosted: December 5th, 2006, 9:50 pm 
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Location: winnipeg
So, for a long-term project to dream about - here is my vision for the bigwater boat:

Beginning with a Hellman Cruiser (http://www.hellmancanoes.com/canoes.html), the shear would be reduced 1" all around, and arched decks would be added (adding about 2" at the centre). One large centre hatch, molded from the same glass would be held down with stainless bolts/wingnuts - difficult to access, but solid, and located to allow portaging (though vision would be limited).

Glass bulkheads would be attatched using QCC's method (http://www.qcckayaks.com/kayaks/bulkheads.asp) behind the bow seat, and in front of the stern footbrace.

Seats would be lowered, and the paddling stations would have the gunwales brought tumblehoming in. Spray decks would snap on under the outwale in a way that did not touch paddler's hands.

Their would be fore and aft hatches/bulkheads, using VCP hatches or some similar small round hatch. The end tanks would be part of the small hatches.

Possibly, the cockpits would have mounted bilge pumps.

I'll probably never get around to doing this (or having it done), but now I have a plan(still not certain about the cockpits, as I want the comfort of a canoe, with the seaworthiness of a kayak-don't want a tight ocean cockpit, but my plan seems weak)!


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 Post subject: big water boat
PostPosted: December 6th, 2006, 9:17 pm 
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Mr. Canoe 18

Maybe just purchase a Clipper Sea-1 in Kevlar and go?


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