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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 10:58 am 
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Lady Di wrote:
One thing he has said is that Ash will not add more than 1 lb over weight.


That sounds about right.

I don't know how much flexibility they have in customizing the wood work - I believe a lot of that comes in precut for them so they're probably limited. In my shop, I've experimented with a few ways of trimming off a bit of weight from the gunnels. One option that worked failry well was to use a slightly thinner inwhale and beef it up by using basswood inserts, spaced to look a bit like ribs. I don't have close up pix, but you can see what it looks like here http://blazingpaddles.ca/richardson/interior.jpg
Doing it this way lets me cut out about the same amount of wood as one inside gunnel. It also makes it easy to drain water out and provides an easy spot to string rope for lashing gear or whatever you might want. Rigidity of the gunnels improves a bit over solid gunnels, but it's a bit harder to position seats etc as you need to tie into the spacer blocks. That's a lot of custom work which is no problem for hobby builders like me, but probably isn't practical for a manufacturer. There's additional labour involved and it's unlikely they could afford to absorb that - means a more expensive boat.
Another option I've used in the past is ash or cherry outside but cedar or spruce inside. While that saves weight, the softer wood on the inside can't support as much weight on the seats as the ash would. Means you have to be more careful and check the fasteners at intervals to ensure they haven't loosened.

Either of the above is only going to reduce weight by a pound or two and that's probably not worth the effort and expense. When I'm trying to reduce the final weight, I'll use techniques like this in combination with a few other tricks to make it worthwhile. I can usually shave off about 5 pounds from a finished canoe - but I don't have to pay for my time to do it. I also don't have to worry about a dissatisfied customer coming back complaining the canoe wasn't strong enough becasue I'm the only one who'll suffer if something breaks. I'd guess that if you had to pay someone else to do it that it would be cheaper to look into a different layup like carbon fiber.

I'm sure they'll do as much for you as they possibly can for you to lighten the canoe without impacting the overall quality. They're very committed to customer satishfaction in my experience - one of the things I like about the company.


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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 11:20 am 
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Hmmm... That was a glowing review...

The way I read the difference is that Blue Steel has Carbon as well for added stiffness

A good dealer, good support and a willingness to customize the fittings are also very useful things, particularly if you aren't a DIY type. If they're willing to provide this at no extra (or very minimal extra) charge then I'd say that you have your boat if the design is one you like.

Like Rolf's suggestion I'd opt for "options" . Even if you never use the second seat you may decide to sell the canoe at some point. Then having the second seat would make it more saleable.

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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 11:38 am 
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RHaslam wrote:
One last thing...ask them to install the carrying yoke facing in the proper direction for travel..the last thing you want to do when you arrive at a port is to try to have to pick the canoe up backward if they leave the thwart facing the bow seat.


I'm going to have to offer a different opionion here and disagree. Because the Pal is of symmetrical design this canoe can work great as a solo. By facing the yoke to the bow that takes away from any advantage for the persons control hand while portaging the canoe. Simply put either the thwart or a kneelingthwart is not within arms reach, its in the other end of the boat. So know you have only the gunnels to hold on to as you portage the canoe when the yoke is placed in the bow direction, very akward on a longer trail!

As far as picking the canoe up and leaving the port backwards? 70% of the time when loading or unloading the canoe you've brought the canoe along broadside to the shoreline, you then simply pick up the canoe then you make your 90 degree turn to the trail.

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Last edited by Alan Greve on May 25th, 2007, 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 11:45 am 
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Rolf Kraiker wrote:
Lady Di wrote:
One thing he has said is that Ash will not add more than 1 lb over weight.


That sounds about right.

I don't know how much flexibility they have in customizing the wood work - I'm the only one who'll suffer if something breaks. I'd guess that if you had to pay someone else to do it that it would be cheaper to look into a different layup like carbon fiber.

I'm sure they'll do as much for you as they possibly can for you to lighten the canoe without impacting the overall quality. They're very committed to customer satishfaction in my experience - one of the things I like about the company.


Hi Rolf
Well, I think I am going to have to be satisfied with more limited custom work. Mostly for the reasons you have already acknowledged.

I did find out they are out of Cherry for the rest of the year and Ash is the only option I was given. For a 49 lb canoe, I feel 3 or 4 lbs is a lot (~10% of weight) so anything that can shave weight without compromising quality and stability is great.

I am waiting to hear back from them..I have been on phone regarding other things. Hoping to get it worked out today because there is a production schedule that I have to contend with. They are busy!

Thanks again
Diane

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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 11:53 am 
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Alan Greve wrote:
RHaslam wrote:
One last thing...ask them to install the carrying yoke facing in the proper direction for travel..the last thing you want to do when you arrive at a port is to try to have to pick the canoe up backward if they leave the thwart facing the bow seat.


I'm going to have to offer a different opionion here and disagree. Because the Pal is of symmetrical design this canoe can work great as a solo. By facing the yoke to the bow that takes away from any advantage for the persons control hand while portaging the canoe. Simply put either the thwart or a kneelingthwart is not within arms reach, its in the other end of the boat. So know you have only the gunnels to hold on to as you portage the canoe when the yoke is placed in the bow direction, very akward on a longer trail!

As far as picking the canoe up and leaving the port backwards? 70% of the time when loading or unloading the canoe you've brought the canoe along broadside to the shoreline, you then simply pick up the canoe then you make your 90 degree turn to the trail.


Hmmm..I must be the 30%. I know from last weekend and every other time I had to turn stupid canoe around..so when Rob made that remark it sunk in. Now maybe it's because I need a lesson in lining up a canoe to port...I dunno -

Also, I never hold on to the thwart when portaging..just the gunnels. Again, it just seems comfortable. I really don't know any more but appreciate the view Alan.
I'll ask the dealer what they think...not having a canoe in front of me..I can't really say exactly what would work..I have to go by my memory. That's scary

:D

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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 11:53 am 
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Ultimately, the total weight means little since it will NOT BE the weight you will actually be portaging anyway!
There will be your add-ons like painter lines, lining ropes, gear tying arrangement. All these add up to some weight and to have to take them off and put them on at each portage is painfull!!
So count on portaging 2-5 lbs more than the boat weighs.

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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 11:57 am 
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The scuppers on the inside of the gunnels can easily be done at the factory without the intense labour that Rolf suggest. By simlpy making simple cuts or slots in the backside of the gunnel this creates scuppers, this can be done in part or along the full lenght of the canoe. Because of the thickness of the inner and outer gunnels the canoe does not lose any strenght by these means. Although running scuppers along the full lenght is not needed as when the canoe is rolled to its side the water flows to the mid section of the canoe and leaves through the scuppers in the center section.

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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 12:24 pm 
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Thanks guys..well it's a done deal. I am going to purchase a sling seat Rolf and that way I can paddle for a day or two to determine seat position.

The stern seat will come out permanently (I can't be bothered...lazy girl) and a small thwart put permanently in it's place.

The bow seat will come uninstalled and uncut - so after I decide the best seat position they will drill it in for me no extra charge.

Dealer agrees with Rob about the yoke...it will face the stern. So I am going to go with that advice. It makes sense to me too.

Finally, yes Mel, there are additional things to carry - which is why the weight is so important to me as a baseline- they will stipulate in writing the canoe will not come in over 49 lbs and will be delievered in 4 weeks (again in writing).

I can't say enough about the service and expertise I have received from Peter at Muskoka Outfitters - he has been excellent!

Now I just have to wait to get it.

Thanks again everyone
Di

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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 12:25 pm 
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Alan Greve wrote:
The scuppers on the inside of the gunnels can easily be done at the factory without the intense labour that Rolf suggest..


For the record, the way I do my "scuppered" gunnels isn't any more labour intensive than what you are suggesting Al. I've done it both ways and the amount of work involved is about the same though effort is reduced if you don't do a whole gunnel in undercuts. I can say that adding the inserts of basswood produces a much stiffer gunnel line making the canoe much more rigid than doing it with undercuts. When I do my gunnels like the way illustrated in the photo, I cut enough basswood blocks to do the canoe making two for each side and each end that tapper down to next to nothing near the deck plate. I mark the center of the gunnel and the point at which the tapers begin and install the blocks from the center to the outside leaving the two tapered blocks with enough space that the deckplate and both gunnels pull together nice and tight. Installation is simple, I have a spacer block that I use to set the distance between each block, I put some glue on, put it in place and then run a staple through to hold it in place for the glue to dry. When installing the gunnels, a screw goes through each block to join inner and outer gunnels so the staple and glue are really only there to hold everything in place until it gets screwed together. My spacer blocks are usually a little over size and I align the bottom so that I can simply sand off any excess once installed. The whole process goes pretty quick and it look sharp when complete, especially if the gunnels are in cherry as the spacers make a nice accent.

Since I gain some rigidity from the inside gunnel, I can shave a bit of material off the outside, so I make that as wide as usual but a bit thinner from top to bottom. Just have to be careful putting the screws in. In addition, the gunnels are rigid enough that I can get away without using a stern thwart on a 16ft boat, again saving a bit of weight.


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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 1:01 pm 
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opps!

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Last edited by Alan Greve on May 25th, 2007, 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 1:03 pm 
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Just to let you know , Steve the "trim guy" can offer you weight savings on your boat if the number's don't jibe, or is it jive? :wink:

Anyway, I talk with Steve whenever I go in and he's been there some plenty of years and it makes sense to talk to him if weight and savings are in need.

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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 1:08 pm 
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Sorry Rolf I should have been clear on my point. I was referring that a boat builder ( manufactures ) can have this option put in place by means of cutting slots to reduce labour but still giving the boat the value of scuppers, thats all. And that is why some big name builders put scuppers in and others not, some don't add the finishing details on their wood trim packages that others will, its all about the finished product.

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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 1:11 pm 
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Lady Di wrote:
Thanks guys..well it's a done deal. I am going to purchase a sling seat Rolf and that way I can paddle for a day or two to determine seat position.

The stern seat will come out permanently (I can't be bothered...lazy girl) and a small thwart put permanently in it's place.

The bow seat will come uninstalled and uncut - so after I decide the best seat position they will drill it in for me no extra charge.

Dealer agrees with Rob about the yoke...it will face the stern. So I am going to go with that advice. It makes sense to me too.

Finally, yes Mel, there are additional things to carry - which is why the weight is so important to me as a baseline- they will stipulate in writing the canoe will not come in over 49 lbs and will be delievered in 4 weeks (again in writing).

I can't say enough about the service and expertise I have received from Peter at Muskoka Outfitters - he has been excellent!

Now I just have to wait to get it.

Thanks again everyone
Di


Hooray for you, Di! :clap: :clap: :clap:

I'm so excited for you that I'm gonna get myself a beer (well...I was going to do that anyway, it's 92 F (33 C) outside and I have to mow the lawn).8)

But you really did it right. All your questions and patience have resulted in a boat I'm sure you'll enjoy and you get to have it your way. Too many folks just accept what they get and live with it. You set a fine example for us to force the makers to live up to their product literature and deliver the goods as described.

Good luck in your paddling adventures. Hope your doggies have as much fun as you do. :D

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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 1:14 pm 
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Alan Greve wrote:
Sorry Rolf I should have been more clear on my point. I was referring that a boat builder ( manufacture ) can have this option put in place by means of cutting slots to reduce labour but still giving the boat the value of scuppers, thats all.


No worries Al, my comments were intended for the hobby builders who hang out on the fourm as food for thought. Personally, I'd like to see a manufacturer make their wooden gunnels the way I illustrated but haven't managed to convince any to go that route yet. Makes for a more functional canoe and it looks better in my opinion. Don't think it would add a significant amount of labour either. I suspect most shops bring in precut gunnel stock. If that's the case the path of least resistance for scuppers is just as you described. Doing it the way I suggest would mean changing the specs for the stock material.


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PostPosted: May 25th, 2007, 1:15 pm 
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Lady Di wrote:

Dealer agrees with Rob about the yoke...it will face the stern. So I am going to go with that advice. It makes sense to me too.

Di


Di thats what I was saying.... Rob is suggesting towards the bow.

Anyway.... happy paddling enjoy your adventures. :wink:

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