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PostPosted: August 2nd, 2007, 7:36 pm 
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Komatiq wrote:
Heard nothing but good about the Clipper Tripper and considered it for a bit before the Mattawa but like the Freedom it was simply more boat than I needed.... I'm just a little fella !! :wink:

Clipper does a nice job with their laminates but I'm partial to the advantages of the closed molded boats especially when closed molding is what keeps my bank account in the black.

All the best with your search.

Seeing the primary intent of this canoe is for tandem travel, The Clipper's size would be fine. They do much better than my Prospector under load too.

Excuse my ignorance, I think I have a bit of an idea though, but what is the difference between a laminate and closed molded construction?

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PostPosted: August 2nd, 2007, 7:38 pm 
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Rapt wrote:
I can't kneel for more than about 15 minutes without a thwart and padding... But with them I'm good for hours...

Don't knock the difference outfitting can make, until you try it.

Good point, as I have never tried kneeling with a kneeling thwart. I imagine it would take most of your weight which would help lots. I know just running one long set of rapids kneeling is more than enough for this ol' fella. :)

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PostPosted: August 2nd, 2007, 7:56 pm 
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My vote would be either a Winisk or a Redbird. Really depends on th look you like - traditional or modern. I have built a cedar strip winisk and love it. I'd have to aggree whole-heartedly with everything rapt says. Great speed, handles a lot of weight and big water well. I've heard the reports of twitchiness but I feel my boat is very stable. I honestly think this has more to do with home builders having difficulty finding long seat hanging bolts (a perennial problem) and consequently installing their seats too close to the gunwales using shorter bolts. I've seen relative novices paddles rental winisks and they never seem to have a problem.

The guys who have built redbirds over on the Bear Mountain forum, swear by them and they sure are pretty, although I don't think they have quite the capacity of a winisk.

Another very fast boat available here in Ontario is the langford nahanni. Its about the same length as the winisks little sister, the Kipawa (16', 6"), but I think it is faster with a better glide. The Kipawa might havea bit better capacity though.

Many years ago I lusted after a wenonah Sundowner but it had no rocker and was really difficult to turn. I was also surprised its speed was not what I had expected either. Over the last few years wenonah has sold more boats like the Escape and Spirit which are better all round lake trippers.

Mind you, all of my observations are subjective and you'd be best to test paddle and decide for yourself. I have paddled many tripping boats though and I'm still partial to the winisk. Now if Lanford (Nahanni) or Clipper (Tripper)wanted to sell plans for their boats I might just change my opinion... :)

And oh yes, Steve Killings Freedom. Very loyal following there too.

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Moonman.


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PostPosted: August 2nd, 2007, 7:56 pm 
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My vote would be either a Winisk or a Redbird. Really depends on th look you like - traditional or modern. I have built a cedar strip winisk and love it. I'd have to aggree whole-heartedly with everything rapt says. Great speed, handles a lot of weight and big water well. I've heard the reports of twitchiness but I feel my boat is very stable. I honestly think this has more to do with home builders having difficulty finding long seat hanging bolts (a perennial problem) and consequently installing their seats too close to the gunwales using shorter bolts. I've seen relative novices paddles rental winisks and they never seem to have a problem.

The guys who have built redbirds over on the Bear Mountain forum, swear by them and they sure are pretty, although I don't think they have quite the capacity of a winisk.

Another very fast boat available here in Ontario is the langford nahanni. Its about the same length as the winisks little sister, the Kipawa (16', 6"), but I think it is faster with a better glide. The Kipawa might havea bit better capacity though.

Many years ago I lusted after a wenonah Sundowner but it had no rocker and was really difficult to turn. I was also surprised its speed was not what I had expected either. Over the last few years wenonah has sold more boats like the Escape and Spirit which are better all round lake trippers.

Mind you, all of my observations are subjective and you'd be best to test paddle and decide for yourself. I have paddled many tripping boats though and I'm still partial to the winisk. Now if Lanford (Nahanni) or Clipper (Tripper)wanted to sell plans for their boats I might just change my opinion... :)

And oh yes, Steve Killings Freedom. Very loyal following there too.

Regards,

Moonman.


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PostPosted: August 2nd, 2007, 8:13 pm 
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Moonman, thanks for all that great input.

It seems most are generally heading me towards either the Winisk or the Freedom, both canoes of worthy consideration.

Does anyone have any experience with the Jensen designed canoes, like the We-no-nah Minnesota II or the Clipper Jensen WW II? I do understand the are very fast, often used for racing, but that many use them for tripping as well. In my mind this design also seems like a contender, I just would like to hear from experience. The Clipper model is one I could likely test drive.

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PostPosted: August 2nd, 2007, 9:07 pm 
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dunkin', guess I should have said they do a good job with their "hand laid" laminates. Closed molding uses vacuum or pressure to either draw or force the resin through a dry laminate stack under a bag or 2 part mold.

With closed molding there is less resin so a better glass/resin ratio which yields a stronger part. The other advantage to closed is the air borne pollutants are drastically reduced and can be filtered, MUCH friendlier to work with. Hand laid is also known as open molding, quite noxious even when you are suited up and all the off gas usually just goes into the environment unfiltered.

About what you were thinkin........ ?


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PostPosted: August 2nd, 2007, 9:45 pm 
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Not exactly what I was thinkin', but a great explanation, thanks for that. The closed mold does seem like a better idea, I imagine that there could be a bit less weight done that way. Would it be more expensive? I have not seen the list price of many of these boats.

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PostPosted: August 2nd, 2007, 10:25 pm 
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dunkin', you'd notice a weight difference more in a larger part than in a small one like a canoe but just for reference here's the links to Swift's page on the Winisk & Clippers on their Tripper.

http://www.swiftcanoe.com/canoe/modern/winisk.htm
http://www.clippercanoes.com/boat_specs.php?model_id=105

The weights are shown on both pages and you'll notice they run pretty close throughout the different laminate offerings. Since it's a pretty competitive market you likely won't see a lot of difference in price but they all want to sell boats so there are deals to be had.

I can say that the infused Swift Mattawa I have is VERY stiff for it's weight (under 40 lbs @ 15'8") but I've yet to actually see one of Clippers ultra light lay-ups to compare the Matty with. I suspect their ultra light would not be as ridgid at that weight in a hand laid boat......... but I could be wrong.

Over the last few years quite a few manufacturers have made the switch to "infusion" which uses vacuum pressure to draw the resin through the laminate stack (including any core). Depending on the pump they are using this can yield a pressure of over 1 ton per sq ft on the dry laminate.
There is no air left in the dry laminate before the resin is introduced and no opportunity for any to get in during the cure so the finished part will be stronger and more durable since air in resin tends to make it more brittle.

I suspect Clipper may follow suit and use the new process at some point since it is becoming a marketing plus but, to their credit, they do an excellent job with their hand laid boats. The glass pattern in all of the boats I've seen is laid with obvious attention to detail and there isn't much evidence of the laminate being resin rich (I suspect they squeegie rather than use a metal air roller).

Hopefully someone here with a Clipper light weight can add some detail.


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PostPosted: August 3rd, 2007, 12:47 am 
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Hey Dunkin', my vote would be for a Clipper Tripper. Great speed, capacity, and can manouver when needed. Second choice would be a Hellman Cruiser (never paddled, but the numbers look good). Third would be a Sea Clipper. Tripper S would be too small. The WW2 would be fast, but not very dry in the big stuff. I think the Cruiser would be the fastest, then the Sea Clipper, then finally the Tripper. I also think the Tripper is a fine blend of characteristics with touch more speed than most. I'm surprised to hear you say the Hellman Prospector is faster unloaded than the Tripper. We've been paddling a HellPro for the last 4 months and average 4.5-5.5kph for comfy cruising. Our Tripper averages 5.5-6.5kph. Loaded, the Tripper is easy to maintain that speed. Loaded and unloaded, the HellPro loses speed instantly. Hellman has the upper hand on weight and strength. We were ready to buy a Kevlar HellPro (46lbs) as our #1 boat. But after paddling a Duralight HellPro (found an awsome deal on one) for the last four months, we decided to go back to our Tripper (sold our fiberglass Tripper 4 months ago). We just recieved our ultralight Tripper two days ago. After months of trying to talk ourselves into the Hellpro (saying that we needed to slow down anyway), I'm so glad that we decided to go for the Tripper (one of those decisions that you feel great about). But, the Hellpro will stay with us for WW for sure. We love it for the dogs, and it's a great backup. Good luck, and keep us posted.


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PostPosted: August 3rd, 2007, 2:28 am 
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Ted, thanks for your input. Last week my son and me tried racing a couple guys in a Tripper when fully loaded, but could not keep up and slowly fell back. After setting up camp a couple days later, we tried again on a day trip unloaded and we won the race, slowly pulling away from them. I know it was not scientific, and in hind sight realized that we were loaded with more gear as my wife was in a solo kayak not carrying much weight in there. I shoulda done some speed tests with my GPS, but never thought of it. I guess we would have to put me and my son in the Tripper together to accurately test the speed of both. My brother, who has a Clipper Prospector used both my Hellman and his canoe together on a family trip of their own and claimed ours to seem faster dry too.

What it really comes down to for me though is the loaded weight as 90% of our paddling is loaded, and any canoe will be much faster dry anyway.

I too am keeping my Hellman Prospector with the Duralite layup for WW trips. It is fitted with a North Water Spray deck.

I will look in to the Hellman Cruiser too. I had not really considered it because of its 18.5' length, but it too is a fairly narrow canoe at 34". I could likely take one for a test drive here in Calgary too.

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PostPosted: August 3rd, 2007, 9:50 am 
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My opinion on the Jensen boats I have seen (never paddled any) were that they were more "racing canoes" first and trippers second.

One of the important things to remember is absolute speed is NOT best efficiency. A boat can be faster than another, but take more steady effort to get it going and keep it going that speed, than a slower boat at its optimum speed. While the slower boat may take less effort to go at speeds that are slower than the maximum possible speed of the faster boat, and be impossible to get to the maximum speed of the faster boat. BUT if you are unable to provide the necessary power to drive the faster boat to its higher speed, you're actually working harder all the time for a maximum speed you can't use.

Its important to match the most efficient speed range for a given canoe to the paddlers who will be paddling it. So that it occurs at the most comfortable energy output for the paddlers. That gives the most "practical" speed and best efficiency over time.

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PostPosted: August 3rd, 2007, 10:40 am 
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Rapt, good thoughts for consideration. I was a bit hesitant about the Jensen design anyway, as it seems they do not take big waves well, and while I try to avoid big waves on large bodies of water, I have been caught in a few times before and sure do want a canoe that can handle it.

Good info regarding speed. You are right that what I am looking for would be the most speed at a level of paddling output that could be sustained over a long distance, not all out power strokes that would be used racing at higher speeds. I had just assumed that a canoe that can go fast would require less effort at a moderate speed, but now see how that may not hold true.

In talking future plans with my wife, she brought me back to reality about building a canoe at this time, there is no way I have the time to spare with everything else I want to accomplish, included getting out to the great outdoors. I do believe I will be buying something and doing a build in a few more years, and I can guarantee I will be building a boat sometime.

It seems I am moving towards these canoes for consideration now.
Swift Winisk
Bluewater freedom 17/9
Clipper Sea Clipper

I am still quite open to other considerations, it just seems this is where I am leaning at this time.

I most likely can try out the Bluewater and Clipper boats here in town, though there is nobody who carries Swift here.

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PostPosted: August 3rd, 2007, 10:50 am 
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Is anyone at all familiar with the Nova Craft Haida 17'? I know someone who has their Prospector in Blue Steel layup and just loves it. I have seen the canoe and it seems very well made.

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PostPosted: August 3rd, 2007, 8:15 pm 
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One thing I really think you should consider is handling ability of a big tripping boat. I think any of the boats discussed in this thread would be quite fast, especially compared to a lot the hulls people use out there.

Boats of these general dimensions are often used for longer trips with sometimes more gear etc. and on these longer trips you will inevitably get some bad weather - I'm really talking about broaching/following waves at an oblique angle to your paddling direction. In these types of conditions I've found the straighter keeled/racing types of hulls can be downright scary. The key for me would be speed plus big/troubled water handling. Testing a boat in these types of conditions (or approaching them) can be a real eye opener. Even though most of us have been in some tight situations and you can probably get to shore or slowly make your way forward in most boats with some extra care and concentration, it can be a stressful situation and really you can get the speed WITH the handling with the right hull. I think all three boats you've narrowed it down to would work well for you but you know my favourite... :)

Moonman.


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PostPosted: August 3rd, 2007, 9:12 pm 
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I am not familiar with the Haida but paddled a Nova Craft 17' Prospector for a week. It was a great canoe. I felt that it handled quite well and that it was quicker than my 16' Nova Craft Prospector.

Bob

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