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 Post subject: Your New Canoe design
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2007, 11:25 am 
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Joined: July 29th, 2005, 11:03 am
Posts: 100
Location: Vandorf, Ontario
Hi All,

I was just wondering about new canoe designs and wanted to pose a question. If you were to design a new canoe, what elements would you like to have? There are many designs out there, fast, no rocker lake boats, river boats, modern hull shapes, traditional, solos, etc. etc.

What elements, including esthetics and hull hydrodynamics, would you most like to see in a new boat, for your prefered type of paddling? I'm not looking to design a boat myself, I just wanted to get an idea of what others would like to see in their personal dream boat.

Thanks,

Moonman.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2007, 11:30 am 
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Location: toronto, Ontario canada
http://www.rethinkkayak.com/technology/
I love the concept of adjustable rocker.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2007, 12:03 pm 
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Joined: June 13th, 2007, 1:31 pm
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Flyrod

Everything I was about to say, now seems insignificant.

Well Done, Lad :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Sundown


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2007, 12:06 pm 
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Location: Bancroft, Ontario Canada
This topic has been discussed at length here on CCR and the general consensus seems to be that it needs to be red.

Image

:wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2007, 12:54 pm 
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Location: Just outside the Blue Line
There is no dreamboat (unless you're speaking about me), only "perfect" canoes for their intended purpose.

Personally, I'm not a believer in all that hydrodynamic stuff when it's applied to canoes. It's not that I don't trust the science behind it, it is physics and engineering after all. Those are the guys that put men on the moon and build bridges and dams and airliners. I just feel that too many local variables can affect the actual handling of a small, lightweight boat once you get it on the water. The paddlers alone can vary like day and night. Therefore, the paddlers themselves need to sort this out on the water, not the designer in the comfort of his office, staring at a computer monitor with a caramel latte at his side.

That said, some highly trained individuals have achieved great results using this method. Perhaps the most successful of these canoe designers in John Winters, the primary designer for Swift. However, John does not design canoes in a bottle and has taken the time to get canoeist's impressions of paddling characteristics (both real and perceived) of his boats as well as his own paddling impressions of them.

Most of the boat designers I respect start with a known commodity and tweak its lines based on experience and intuition, trying to get a certain qualities they would like without destroying other admirable qualities, a losing proposition most times.

One of the best designers in the industry is David Yost who began his career designing marathon racing canoes for his own use. That's a good thing for me because some of those qualities are found in many of his tripping designs. Relatively fast hulls with great paddling efficiency. But he also realized that trippers want capacity, stability and seaworthiness added to the package. These changes will slightly reduce the racing qualities but give the tripper what he needs.

So to answer your question, I will take a DY designed boat that I happen to own for a particular purpose (a Bell Northstar) and try to "improve" it by adding on qualities that I feel I would like.

The Northstar is 16 1/2' long, too long for an ideal dual use (solo/tandem) canoe. especially going solo in the wind. I would prefer it to be about 15'.

I don't want to lose the ample capacity that the Northstar has so I realize the boat needs to be wider amidships to make up for that lack in length.

It is kind of tippy initially due to its somewhat slack bilges. Nothing dangerous or unnerving, but I'd prefer better initial stability for shifting around and landing fish and such things..

The boat is an asymmetrical design, with a differential shear and rocker. I'd prefer a symmetrical design that I can just turn around and paddle from the bow seat.

My Northstar is an ultralight design (Kev Light) which I love, Only 39#, easy to carry and to load and unload on the car. But the walls above the water line are extremely flexible. The boat doesn't flex in the water or anything but it has sustained fairly significant damage from a fairly mild mishap. A stronger layup and wood gunwales instead of the lighter aluminum ones would have protected it better.

I'd like a canoe I felt good about taking down rivers every once in awhile, some thing that can take a few rock hits or even a minor pin without being severely damaged. Maybe a lightweight Royalex might do the trick for me.

Now that I get all these design criteria built into my new boat, I take it out for a test spin. I suddenly realize that I've reinvented the Nova Craft Bob's Special, which I could have gotten in the first place but chose the Northstar instead.

Slower, stabler, easier in the wind, solos backward from the bow seat, tougher but heavier, wider entry at stems, less seaworthy..... and it no longer meets my primary needs.

I guess my point is that all canoe features are compromises, and rather that adding desirable features to make a better boat, I must live without them to keep what attracted me to the canoe in the first place. Kinda like women.

Too bad I can't have as many women in my rack as I do canoes, but Lady Battenkiller would surely disapprove. :P

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2007, 2:12 pm 
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Location: Vandorf, Ontario
Hey BK,

Thanks for your response. What I was refering to was not a complete redesign, and not somethjing for everyone, more of a tweak here and there and something for each individual paddler choice of boat specificaly.

I know there are a million boats out there that do things well in one environment and perform poorly in another. As well, I'm also refering to just pure looks, as opposed to only performance. Of course, there is no perfect boat that can do everything perfectly - I was only wondering how you would like to change (maybe slightly, not at all, or a lot), your favourite boat. Obviously, if you wanted to change it a lot, you are probably better off with another design entirely.

You mentioned a Bob's for example. Nice little boat, but maybe you wanted it a smidgen faster. Or slightly deeper. Or maybe even painted red... :)

Another example of colour changing a boats impression is the white winisk on the Greenvalley site. I noticed that Martin has put the picture up again. I've built a strip winisk and love it, but every time I look at that painted winisk, I just sit and stare. Very attractive. Also just like the really nice two-tone look of basswood and walnut on Nick Schade's boat Nymph.

Moonman.


Last edited by Moonman on November 23rd, 2007, 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2007, 3:36 pm 
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Location: Sunny Wasaga Beach
Battenkiller wrote:
There is no dreamboat (unless you're speaking about me), only "perfect" canoes for their intended purpose.

Personally, I'm not a believer in all that hydrodynamic stuff when it's applied to canoes. It's not that I don't trust the science behind it, it is physics and engineering after all.

Yada, yada, yada........natter, natter, natter. Sheesh, there you go again, BK, with your bickering and arguing :) :) :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2007, 4:46 pm 
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wotrock wrote:
Yada, yada, yada........natter, natter, natter. Sheesh, there you go again, BK, with your bickering and arguing :) :) :wink:


For Christ's SAKE, leave me alone, Wotrock!

I'm all about the bickerin' n' arguin'... :wink:

Ask anybody here.

I'm a friggin' ZEN MASTER too! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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“We can have great disparities of wealth or we can have democracy. But we cannot have both.” - Former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2007, 5:23 pm 
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Joined: November 23rd, 2007, 5:01 pm
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:o :o :o


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2007, 7:15 pm 
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Location: Wakefield, Quebec
Battenkiller wrote:
Ask anybody here.


Oooh,Oooh
pickmepickme

Battenkiller wrote:
I'm a friggin' ZEN MASTER too! :lol: :lol: :lol:


chewing gumYah.

:P

p.s. hey you overstuffed blowhard- how was the Feast of the Buzzard?

:wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2007, 7:25 pm 
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Location: Grand Haven, Michigan U.S.A.
Moonman,
I do that for many of my boats. I modify seat hight on a couple boats, I've modified the width of one of my boats which changed the rocker a little, I've moved seats... it's called modifying the boat to better suit my needs.

I'm not sure I'd go through too much effort to build a slightly different hull based on something that is already made, but there are several canoes that I wish could be made. I really like Bells Magic, but I really don't need a 16 foot flatwater boat. I'd like to see a shorter Bell Magic.... a hard tracking boat that uses some rocker to be much more maneuverable than anything similar. The Merlin II doesn't work as it's really more like a Wildfire than a Magic. I'd like to see the boat being 14'6" or 15 for smaller paddler. It would be a hoot as it would accelerate fast, and in my mind is a gap in the current solo's available.

PK


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2007, 9:08 pm 
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Joined: June 5th, 2007, 8:13 am
Posts: 13
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
flyrod wrote:
http://www.rethinkkayak.com/technology/
I love the concept of adjustable rocker.


That's awesome :o . I have a PakCanoe, which I like given that I live in an apartment, and have been looking for a similar foldable kayak but hadn't found anything that really impressed me. That Trak Kayak though looks like it could be "it". High price tag at almost $5500, but could be worth it. Thanks for bringing this to my attention Flyrod :clap:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2007, 10:53 pm 
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Joined: March 23rd, 2005, 1:41 pm
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Location: Grand Marais, MN
I'd like to see a foldable canoe with adjustable rocker. Other than that, I have the canoes that are perfect for me, and can't think of anyway that I'd like to improve them.

Love my Wildfire, Magic, and Freedom. The perfect combo. :) Everything else for me would simply be fluff. Same with kayaks, I own a Romany, about as close to perfect for me as I've found.

But, I did design a newish canoe based on a canoe in Skin and Bark. Did it for fun, because the canoe looked cool. Tweaked it a bit. Hopefully, making it more solo friendly, and easier to sit in and paddle. Now, I just have to build it. you can never own too many...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 24th, 2007, 12:44 am 
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siren1 wrote:
p.s. hey you overstuffed blowhard- how was the Feast of the Buzzard?

:wink:


Too much buzzard.

Just the right amount of wine. 8)

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“We can have great disparities of wealth or we can have democracy. But we cannot have both.” - Former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 24th, 2007, 1:35 am 
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Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 11:21 pm
Posts: 1076
Location: Burns Lake, BC
How about having an adjustable composite canoe? Pick a material that doesn't mind flexing a bit. Have three thwarts adjustable like a hiking pole (twist lock or flick lock). Hang the seats from the gunnels with hinging hangers to compensate for adjustment. You would have the boat rest in the middle adjustment, then you would be able to spread or pull in to the desired shape. You wouldn't be able to change the shape a whole bunch, but enough to notice (tracking or turning).


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