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PostPosted: June 17th, 2008, 11:40 am 
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since we're well into a skill's discussion here, any comment on the idea of "cheek to the wind" when crossing a channle of partial to full sidewind on a lake? This would mean tilting the canoe so the upwind gunwale is high, and the wind can roll off the canoe's side or butt, rather than catching onto the inside. on the 3 choices given, it 'd be hard to do with 1 and likely 2 that way.

this would be the opposite of sailing the canoe by catching it on purpose I guess.

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PostPosted: June 17th, 2008, 11:45 am 
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mark the splasher wrote:
since we're well into a skill's discussion here, any comment on the idea of "cheek to the wind" when crossing a channle of partial to full sidewind on a lake? This would mean tilting the canoe so the upwind gunwale is high, and the wind can roll off the canoe's side or butt, rather than catching onto the inside. on the 3 choices given, it 'd be hard to do with 1 and likely 2 that way.

this would be the opposite of sailing the canoe by catching it on purpose I guess.


Hmm, I've never really thought as much about harnessing the wind by heeling the upwind side up giving it more canoe to catch on. Then again, I rarely find that the direction the wind is blowing is something that seriously helps me. I'm much more often going up wind, down wind, or quartering at some sort of angle to the wind rather than sideways to the wind and wanting the wind to blow me downwind.

But I have heeled the upwind side to keep water from breaking over the side of the canoe on crossings with a side wind.... but that's somewhate different.

PK


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PostPosted: June 17th, 2008, 2:05 pm 
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pknoerr wrote:
mark the splasher wrote:
Hmm, I've never really thought as much about harnessing the wind by heeling the upwind side up giving it more canoe to catch on. PK


i think (?) the theory is the opposite of this pk - to let the wind slide off, and then there is less of me, gear and the inside of my canoe to catch the wind. maybe just a more consistent surface so less correction or weathervaning. anyway, the mantra was "cheek to the wind" definitely (we were going almost cross-wind at the time). certainly keeping the breaking waves out of the canoe is a good reason for it all by itself.

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PostPosted: June 17th, 2008, 3:10 pm 
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mark the splasher wrote:
pknoerr wrote:
mark the splasher wrote:
Hmm, I've never really thought as much about harnessing the wind by heeling the upwind side up giving it more canoe to catch on. PK


i think (?) the theory is the opposite of this pk - to let the wind slide off, and then there is less of me, gear and the inside of my canoe to catch the wind. maybe just a more consistent surface so less correction or weathervaning. anyway, the mantra was "cheek to the wind" definitely (we were going almost cross-wind at the time). certainly keeping the breaking waves out of the canoe is a good reason for it all by itself.


I'm not a sailor so maybe that explains my not understanding. Though, I'm not sure how applicable it is for canoes. In my experience, heeling away from the wind (raising the upwind side) does two things 1) it increases rocker, and 2) it puts alot more canoe above the water. That said, I can see where the smooth side and bottom may not "catch" as much wind. Nonetheless, I still think that in most wind driven circumstances I've been tripping in, I'd be leaning that direction to keep the water out, not worrying about reducing windage.

I look forward to heaing from Dr. Winters....

PK


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PostPosted: June 19th, 2008, 5:14 am 
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Have never heard of "Cheeks to the wind" so you can see the limitations of my experience.

I can't see a lot of advantage (but I have only done a short analysis). The exposed area increased rapidly with heel and my gut feel is that the added area would offset the "streamlining" of the shape. Of course, the turbulence on the lee side would increase as well. This would be tough to analyze.

As pknoer points out there might be control problems from the reduced underwater profile.

Nevertheless, some boats might benefit (not sure which ones) so it is worth a try.

Learn something new every day.

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PostPosted: June 19th, 2008, 6:00 am 
mark the splasher wrote:
since we're well into a skill's discussion here, any comment on the idea of "cheek to the wind" when crossing a channle of partial to full sidewind on a lake? This would mean tilting the canoe so the upwind gunwale is high, and the wind can roll off the canoe's side or butt, rather than catching onto the inside. on the 3 choices given, it 'd be hard to do with 1 and likely 2 that way.

this would be the opposite of sailing the canoe by catching it on purpose I guess.


In my experience I prefer to heel the canoe a little bit upwind like this:
Image
for stability purposes, as the combination of hard wind and drift may cause tipping me to the leeside if I would lean downwind. Only when water threatens to come in, I would temporally heel a bit downwind. But then the wave height possibly blocks some of the wind strength?

I have never experienced a positive sailing effect in the canoes that I paddled. But I have never really experimented with heeling the canoe in hard wind situations to find out if there really is a positive effect possible, so...

Dirk Barends


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PostPosted: June 19th, 2008, 7:48 am 
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Hi Dirk,
The upwind tacking sailing effect when solo paddling, is opposite to your diagram. The hull of the boat is leaned (heeled) away from the wind, so that the bottom of the hull is presented up into the wind. So in your diagram, the boat is leaned the other way. And the wind vector is at 45 against the boat.

This thread is so hijacked, so apologies to the originator. :roll: :D

By solo paddling upwind at about a 45 degree angle upwind with a significant lean, AND by using a Canadian stroke (which keeps the paddle down and slicing in the water on the return part of the stroke, acting as a keel), you will generate "lift" forces and catch a sailing effect. It will only work with the paddle down and serving some keel opposing forces. This is not a goon rudder, this is the elegant slicing return part of the Canadian which is opposite your hip on the return slice, and using the gunwale for resting and sliding that return stroke on. You must use the gunwale as a slide, or the forces cannot be controlled.

The sail effect on a triangular sailboat sail, tacking upwind, is produced when "lift" forces are created by high and low pressure systems around the sail and boat. The sailboat is pushed or "lifted" by the wind blowing across the sails, not by wind blowing into them.

Similarly, the wind blowing across the leaned (heeled) up canoe hull when tacking into the wind will create lift or a push, and you will feel the power and be pushed forward, if you are also using a slicing efficient return stroke against the gunwale. Although the outside curve of the hull seems to be opposite to the sailboat's sail in shape, (concave vs convex), similar forces can be produced. If you have ever watched a turned over canoe on land picked up and "lifted" by the wind, you will appreciate that a canoe hull is a type of wing when wind blows across it.

Here are a couple websites which sort of explain how sailboats use these high and low pressure effects to achieve "lift" and sail upwind on a tack:
http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/sailboat4.htm
http://www.solarnavigator.net/sails.htm

I feel sorry for flat-hulled sit and switch solo paddlers (primitive, poor skilled, deprived and disadvantaged bunch – never really learned how to paddle :lol: :wink: ), who will never know the thrills, speed and acceleration of skimming over waves with a quick cadence Canadian stroke, in big winds with the boat way up on a lean, catching a sail, and slicing through waves going upwind.
Sail on! :D

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 Post subject: experimenting
PostPosted: June 19th, 2008, 8:16 am 
It seems that I really, really have to do some experimenting here on the lake, to find out if I can work that out.

Dirk Barends


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PostPosted: June 19th, 2008, 8:25 am 
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now Hoop that'll be something to try.
the person who mentioned this to me, (I was a lowly goon-stroker at the time), was Tim at White Squall. I am going back a few seasons when I was out of breath and out of my element, but I gathered it was simply for wind shearing effects, and perhaps keeping the water out. If he considered it for sailing he didn't say, but that would have been 20 steps ahead of my skill level, rather than the 5 or 10 we were discussing at that time.

now Hoop, one more question, I can Indian stroke my way around fine, and use it to keep my canoe from weathervaning in tough wind, and assume any reasonable inwater recovery stroke will do for your sailing technique? for some reason the full-on Canadian eludes me and I need an inwater lesson on it. infact, my understanding is the Indian never comes out of the water, the Canadian has the elegant Kim pop-out and quick reentry...if so, wouldn't the Indian be preferred if less quick perhaps?

why do i think this just opens a can of worms with the experts here?

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PostPosted: June 19th, 2008, 8:59 am 
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HOOP_ wrote:
I feel sorry for flat-hulled sit and switch solo paddlers (primitive, poor skilled, deprived and disadvantaged bunch – never really learned how to paddle :lol: :wink: ), who will never know the thrills, speed and acceleration of skimming over waves with a quick cadence Canadian stroke, in big winds with the boat way up on a lean, catching a sail, and slicing through waves going upwind.
Sail on! :D


Ah yes, that dig was for me. But sadly for HOOP the Canadian stroke works really well with a bent carbon paddle in a solo since only the blade is in the water. Nothing... and I mean nothing slices through the water like a razor thin dihedral blade. I was out last night enjoying the full moon in my 13' solo with a 12 degree Zaveral. Silent...fast as hell, sneaking up on herons fishing, and deer with fawns at the rivers edge. I still have the long board for intricate paddling... but find it's not in my hands as much these days as it was several years ago. I personally don't do Indian strokes with a bent.... but then again... it takes only a second to pull out the straight when I need it for that. One need not totally discard classical paddling to embrace modern techniques as well.

PK


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PostPosted: June 19th, 2008, 11:26 am 
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HOOP & Dirk, just to add..... do consider which side you're paddling on....as a lefty or righty and the direction of travel with the dirction of the wind will cause one to adjust this process....its not all texbook.

HOOP....I do like your thoughts about the flat heeled sit and switch! :wink:

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PostPosted: June 19th, 2008, 9:09 pm 
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Ah yes, PK and I joust good naturedly all the time! :D

And I feel sorry for PK that he feels he needs a bent shaft to compensate for his lack of skill (ouch!) with the straight paddle for speed and efficiency - but there is hope for him yet if he practices more! He’s still young :D ( I am sure I have set myself up for a good natured attack on that one. :lol: ) But I plan to buy him a beer when we meet one day! :D

PK wrote:
Quote:
Nothing... and I mean nothing slices through the water like a razor thin dihedral blade.


Absolutely agree PK. That's exactly the blade that best works to set up the sailing effect I write about. See, we agree on stuff! And anyways, a sharp thin edge is the best for all paddling anyways. It’s essential for the Canadian stroke to work well. I shudder at many of the paddle design I see out there with dull edges. Dull edged paddles should be banned!

Hi Mark,
That "indian stroke" might be two or three different strokes based on who you are talking to. The one I hear most often referred to is a terribly weak stroke where one retrieves the paddle back entirely in the water, off the gunwale, with the paddle doing nothing correction wise. Because the top hand paddle grip is twirled at the apex of the J, to reverse the power face, one essentially stops the correction part of the stroke, resulting in a jerking J, which jerks the boat too.

For evidence, just watch that collection of freestyle videos that Battenkiller posted. I think most of those solo paddlers doing their freestyle routines used an indian stroke and produced jerky correction strokes - you can see it in the boat trajectory. I don't know what the attraction is for this weak stroke.

You are far better to NOT rotate the power face, and use a Canadian to slice back and out of the water, then slice the edge in first, NOT the tip! When leaned up solo, the entry of the knife-edged paddle is lateral along the knife edge. It produces what initially looks like a short cadence choppy paddling style. But actually it’s a smooth system of power that is more efficient. When you really, really have to reach far out front for a big power stroke, you can reach way out and place the paddle tip in first, but when accelerated up to speed, you can sit back a bit and slice the paddle into the water along its edge and then down straighter, then slice back. Kneeling of course, opens up the abdomen, and allows the much farther reach, both onside and offside. Sitting closes the abdomen, and reduces reach.

For that inside turn stuff posted recently, you straighten up the stroke to vertical and past vertical reaching way under the boat, but you still slice back with the Canadian recovery.

(Aside: That’s one of the reasons by the way for the design of the paddle in my avatar: That elegant throat of the paddle mates with the chine of the boat to allow that under the boat reach for inside work. The so-called “voyageur” paddle with all the wood up at the throat is an abomination, preventing the paddle from even coming close to the boat. Voyageurs never used such a paddle. Just look at Fances Ann Hopkins paintings).

I suggest ditching that indian stroke. And use the gunwale rub on the retrieve for power and relaxing the arm. Your lower hand should be able to let go of the paddle and guide it back on the recovery, just between your open thumb and forefinger. The forearm muscles relax. In that way you can paddle on one side for hours without fatigue and no need to switch sides if you don't want to.

For practice on the Canadian: Put a can of beans in the chine of your boat in front of you, lean the boat way up, and learn to paddle the boat while minimizing the rolling of the bean can. You need a wider boat to do this, like a small tandem. Modern narrow solo boats have minimal lean abilities when empty. I like a 34 inch beam for classic solo. J strokers and indian strokers will always jerk the leaning boat and cause the can to roll. When the bean can stops rolling and becomes still all the time, you have arrived grasshopper! :wink:

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Last edited by HOOP_ on June 20th, 2008, 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: June 19th, 2008, 11:32 pm 
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HOOP_ wrote:
For evidence, just watch that collection of freestyle videos that Battenkiller posted. I think most of those solo paddlers doing their freestyle routines used an indian stroke and produced jerky correction strokes - you can see it in the boat trajectory. I don't know what the attraction is for this weak stroke.


It looks cool for the music stuff. Plus, they are doing a lot of palm rolls in their techniques, so I think that way of paddling works for them. It looks really relaxed, and that is what is stressed in that style. I'm not a fan of the Indian stroke as you describe it. Bill Mason makes a big deal of it in "Path of the Paddle" for control in the wind. I don't get it, bow pries are so much more powerful in that case. I practice the Indian every once in a while, but the fact that my Canadian is so smooth and my Indian basically sucks shows you where my heart lies. I use the Indian when I want to be dead silent with minimum motion, but I really have to concentrate on it. I agree it is not a powerful cruising stroke.

Quote:
...when accelerated up to speed, you can sit back a bit and slice the paddle into the water along its edge and then down straighter, then slice back. Kneeling of course, opens up the abdomen, and allows the much farther reach, both onside and offside. Sitting closes the abdomen, and reduces reach.


I never switch to the Canadian until I am up to cruising speed. I can't get enough correction on the recovery until the boat is moving at a good clip, at which time it is the most natural stroke IHO. Before that point I use a C-stroke.

Quote:
And use the gunwale rub on the retrieve for power and relaxing the arm. Your lower hand should be able to let go of the paddle and guide it back on the recovery, just between your open thumb and forefinger. The forearm muscles relax. In that way you can paddle on one side for hours without fatigue and no need to switch sides if you don't want to.


I don't like to rub the gunwale unless necessary. I prefer the control of the lifting force I can apply to the paddle on the slicing recovery. Sometimes I just let the blade hang there and pull up to get a stronger correction without slowing the boat down. That's what works for me and I can paddle that way for hours so I see no reason to rub.

Quote:
For practice on the Canadian: Put a can of beans in the chine of your boat in front of you, lean the boat way up, and learn to paddle the boat while minimizing the rolling of the bean can. You need a wider boat to do this, like a small tandem. Modern narrow solo boats have minimal lean abilities when empty. I like a 34 inch beam for classic solo. J strokers and indian strokers will always jerk the leaning boat and cause the can to roll. When the bean can stops rolling and becomes still all the time, you have arrived grasshopper! :wink:


Nice little exercise, I'll have to try it. Don't see why the Indian stroke should make the can roll, but I'll give that a try as well. You should check out those vids again. Not all of them jerk the leaning boat around during the Indian stroke. Marc Ornstein in particular can keep the boat pretty level when he wants to.

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PostPosted: June 20th, 2008, 4:19 am 
Indeed I agree with HOOP_ ;-) that it takes a lot more skill to paddle forward with a straight paddle than with a bent-shaft paddle. That is why I prefer a bent-shaft paddle: it makes paddling forward so much easier to do, especially when you are not so strong...

As for the FreeStylers, I agree that for some of them going straight is not their strongest move -- maybe because it doesn't have a fancy name :-)
But even though going straight is the move I practice the most, I still haven’t reached the perfection I’m after too!

Dirk Barends


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: June 20th, 2008, 7:36 am 
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Hoopy,

Thanks I greatly enjoy your wit, and next time we pass through TB I'll surely have to beep you and we'll spend some time enjoying some fermeted hops.

I'll have to spend some time this weekend practicing my straight shaft paddling... but man everytime I pick that 18 oz cedar stick up I feel like my arm is going to fall off. Then it's happily back to the 10 oz wonder. :lol:

PK


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