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PostPosted: May 15th, 2008, 9:21 am 
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and getting in and out of a canoe

Might be of interest how the fabric is layed in and infused.

http://placidboats.com/index1.html

Click on the video player


Last edited by littleredcanoe on May 15th, 2008, 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: May 15th, 2008, 11:00 am 
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We saw that last night when we visited their site to get specs to compare our pack canoe with the SpitFire (ours is a foot shorter but has a narrower waterline).

So Charlie and Joe are giving away their trade secrets on the Internet, eh? Cool process, and very "green" as well (virtually no VOC emissions compared to doing a regular layup). They've described the whole thing to me, but I was never there when they were actually infusing, apparently a very short window of opportunity given the speed at which it occurs.

Now all I need in a vacuum pump that can draw 29" of mercury, not as demanding on equipment at my altitude. :wink:

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PostPosted: May 15th, 2008, 11:17 am 
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Hardly giving away their trade secrets...there is far more than they show.

Vacuum infusing is very tricky..spent four hours tracking a leak. The old machine has to be tested each time for draw..because there is no margin for error during the process.


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PostPosted: May 15th, 2008, 10:23 pm 
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What kind of spray are they using to stick the fabric? That could be useful for building strippers.

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PostPosted: May 16th, 2008, 4:25 am 
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I don't know.
You can email them directly. Charlie will answer.


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PostPosted: May 16th, 2008, 6:18 am 
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Think I remember them saying it was just spray adhesive. The resin gets drawn through it. Not sure if that would work without 29" of vacuum pressure pulling the resin through the cloth. I'll be at the ADK Paddlefest so I'll try to remember to ask them today to be sure.

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PostPosted: June 19th, 2008, 6:09 pm 
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Any answer on the spray adhesive?

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PostPosted: June 19th, 2008, 6:16 pm 
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Bryan Hansel wrote:
Any answer on the spray adhesive?


Charlie was deliberately cagey about it. Maybe it is a secret.

Or more likely, he was just being Charlie. :roll: :lol:

I'd e-mail them. Joe will probably give you a straight answer.

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PostPosted: June 19th, 2008, 6:21 pm 
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Can't speak for Placid but the adhesive we use a lot for infusion is made by 3M. it isn't anything special and you don't need much to hold the fabric in place. The glue gets broken down by the styrene in the resin.

There is a LOT to the process although it looks quite simple. Typical VOC retention is normally 75-80 % over hand laid and, depending on vac pressure used, the laminate is far stronger than any hand laid part.

edit to add: just watched the video, looks like they are using Airtech adhesive. 3M does the same job and is easier to find............. :wink:


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PostPosted: June 19th, 2008, 7:10 pm 
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I thought both halves of the show were fabulous. The older craftsman was delightful and rightly proud of his work, and the Placid guys make incredibly beautiful canoes.

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PostPosted: June 19th, 2008, 9:44 pm 
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Zoomed in on the video and found the answer.

Air Tac 2.... from the following supplier of vacuum bagging and infusion products:

http://www.airtechwind.com/products.aspx

Kom, do you think this stuff is OK to use with epoxies? Doesn't seem to be much on there, even if it doesn't get dissolved away.

Actually, we were able to get two layers of 3.2 oz. glass stuck on pretty tightly to the bare hull (we could see the wood grain clearly through both layers) just using a dry brush and the static cling of the glass. That's as much as we are comfortable wetting out by hand, even with the ultra thin System Three Clear Coat. Done this way, we were able to completely eliminate wrinkles as we worked, even on the inside.

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PostPosted: June 20th, 2008, 7:04 am 
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Quote:
do you think this stuff is OK to use with epoxies?


BK,
It's used with epoxies all the time but may "show" up as a haze in a clear laminate (depending on the transparency of the epoxy used) if you get a little carried away with the application. I'd hesitate to use it on a stripper without doing a test first.

The parent company that supplies Air Tac is.....
http://www.airtechonline.com/
.... they have a number of different sites like the one you suplied the link to.

Another good one of theirs related to infusion is......
http://www.resininfusion.com/index.html

The next time you are talking to the guys at Placid ask what size pump they are using. :wink:


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PostPosted: June 20th, 2008, 8:23 am 
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Komatiq wrote:
The next time you are talking to the guys at Placid ask what size pump they are using. :wink:


Will do (they're going to start getting suspicious! :doh:).

I know it is old and powerful, probably an eBay special. Draws over 29" when it is running (which, I've heard, it often isn't :lol: ).

Incidentally, vacuum infusion or not, the smell of styrene is always in the air in their shop. Can the same technique work with epoxy? Seems that the thin laminating epoxies would work fine and produce an even tougher hull. It shouldn't add more than $50 to the cost of building one of their small boats if they buy in bulk.

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PostPosted: June 20th, 2008, 10:04 am 
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Quote:
Can the same technique work with epoxy? Seems that the thin laminating epoxies would work fine and produce an even tougher hull.


Sure can. There are a number of companies that offer lower viscosity epoxies for infusion (Airtech is one) and more than a few manufacturers are using epoxies. It makes a far superior laminate.

Quote:
the smell of styrene is always in the air in their shop.


Noticed they are using an open container for their resin so that's an obvious styrene source. There are a lot of claims being made about the styrene reduction of infusion but it has to be a closed process to gain the 90% reduction some claim.

If builders aren't filtering the exhaust on their pumps there is really very little reduction, it's just getting pumped out in the vac's exhaust.


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PostPosted: June 20th, 2008, 10:38 am 
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Komatiq wrote:
There are a number of companies that offer lower viscosity epoxies for infusion (Airtech is one) and more than a few manufacturers are using epoxies. It makes a far superior laminate.

Noticed they are using an open container for their resin so that's an obvious styrene source. There are a lot of claims being made about the styrene reduction of infusion but it has to be a closed process to gain the 90% reduction some claim.

If builders aren't filtering the exhaust on their pumps there is really very little reduction, it's just getting pumped out in the vac's exhaust.


Yeah, they are doing a wonderful job up there, but Charlie is a long time veteran and old habits die hard. My feeling is that the boat could be improved by the addition of a thin sheet of foam for stiffening, skip the extra layer of Kevlar on the bottom and go with epoxy for the few extra bucks. There is so little resin in a boat of that light weight, might as well use the best. They certainly charge enough.

One more thought. Is gel coat compatible with epoxy resin? I like their gel coat a lot, beautiful and UV protecting as well. If not, are there other ways to protect epoxy from UV damage besides varnish?

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