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PostPosted: July 27th, 2009, 5:44 am 
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BK wrote:

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I've been told that the shape of the Swift Osprey is somewhat defined by Bill Swift's decision not to use a two piece mold. The design allows the boat to be "squirted" out of the end of the mold and thereby avoid mold separation artifact. Makes me wonder which is more accurate to your original drawings, the Swift version or the plans sold by Greenval. How much do they vary (if at all), or can't you can say without divulging too much proprietary info?


The underwater shape of the Swift boat was almost true to the original boat (my personal boat). I did make the "shoulders" different to allow a one piece mold and I modified the ends a bit to make Royalex more practical. I still like the original appearance. The Green Valley boat does differ from the Swift in that I faired the lines and made it better for wood strip construction. I don't think anyone would notice much difference in paddling them. All that said, keep in mind that moulds change shape and. in my experience, each time a new mould is made the shape changes. Te purist in me has been badly pummeled over the years so I no longer get in a huff if new versions differ slightly. :wink:

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Isn't that what the computer design programs like BearBoatPro do as well?


Yup. The Lackenby method has the virtue of doing in seconds what other methods take hours to do as automates the whole process and allows you to maintain a generic hull shape (i.e. same sections from front to back) which is good if you think you have something important in the shapes. When tinkering with Bearboat I ended up getting some shape cahnges in teh ends that i did not expect. Nevertheless Bearboatpro is a great program and FREE. More sophisticated programs like Nautilus and others give you more design flexibility and have lots of extra features but they cost lots.

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At the AFS, Charlie Wilson said that was just a cheap trick, made possible by the use of a big, beamy canoe laid to the rails and a real long lever provided by a grave digger's shovel handle. He said that anyone can do it.


Never thought I would be in a position to defend Pat Moore but there you are. People in Canada have been doing what we now call freestyle in big tandem canoes for years. I think they used to teach it in summer camps for kids.

I recall that Pat's purpose was to show that you could do it in most anything with most any kind of paddle but that it was much more pleasurable and interesting using solo canoes and well crafted paddles. You can surely do more interesting moves in a solo canoe.

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PostPosted: July 27th, 2009, 7:01 am 
Jwinters wrote:
Battenkiller wrote:
I've been told that the shape of the Swift Osprey is somewhat defined by Bill Swift's decision not to use a two piece mold. The design allows the boat to be "squirted" out of the end of the mold and thereby avoid mold separation artifact. Makes me wonder which is more accurate to your original drawings, the Swift version or the plans sold by Greenval. How much do they vary (if at all), or can't you can say without divulging too much proprietary info

The underwater shape of the Swift boat was almost true to the original boat (my personal boat). I did make the "shoulders" different to allow a one piece mold and I modified the ends a bit to make Royalex more practical. I still like the original appearance. The Green Valley boat does differ from the Swift in that I faired the lines and made it better for wood strip construction. I don't think anyone would notice much difference in paddling them. All that said, keep in mind that moulds change shape and. In my experience, each time a new mould is made the shape changes. Te purist in me has been badly pummeled over the years so I no longer get in a huff if new versions differ slightly. :wink:

The new 'infused' made Osprey comes from a split mold now, and there are small differences in the stems and shoulders. Also the stability may have changed a bit, because I found my Kevlar Fusion Osprey a bit less stable than the older style one that I test paddled the year before. But that could also be because of the lighter weight. Also it seems a bit faster?

Image

But I have been training more this year than the year before because I had some health problems then.

Anyway it was worth waiting for over 4 years for an opportunity to get one here... I have a lot of fun now paddling the Osprey on the flats and in wind and waves on the lake here, and we even survived a summer sunday trip in Amsterdam yesterday. :wink:

Dirk Barends


Last edited by Guest on July 29th, 2009, 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: July 27th, 2009, 7:22 am 
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I don't know that I'd call it a cheap trick. But I cuncur more with Johns interpretation. Paddlers who are first learning freestyle think it's the nice Fire boats, or Tom's Loonworks boats, or the nice paddles. There is alot of finery around a freestyle symposium from $5000 custom made canoes, to $400 paddles, and it's real easy for folks early in their freestyle interest to think it's the paddle or the canoe and not realize how many hours of dry planning and paddling it took to fluidly link strokes like a freestyle paddler does.

Freestyle in a Grumman is easy stuff. For difficult try freestyleing a Jensen J203!! I'll have to post pictures of that! Big tandems make great freestyle canoes... on one side, unless you have a long ass paddle and then the otherside becomes a reality. Once you drag the keep up fully out of the water, the tin can spins like a leaf. I've freestyled in a a Grumman Standard, a Grumman Eagle, an Old Town Tripper, and numerous other big tandems through the years. It looks tougher than it is to freestyle a Grumman. The real testiment to Pat's paddling ability is his handling of the shovel. Grab a shovel some time and take a stroke. It's poorly balanced, the blade is foil shaped, so in water recoveries are tough. Slices into placements are brutal.

So rather than put Pat's exhibition with the Grumman and shovel into the virtually impossible category, lets put it into the very possible category and that it rather illustrates how good we all have it when we show up for a freestyle symposium with a decent canoe and paddle. It's the paddler folks not the canoe that makes it look easy. It always has been, and always will be. :D

PK


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PostPosted: July 27th, 2009, 8:55 am 
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Hello, this is the nitpicker editor with a correction. You guys are talking about Canadian Style. FS has cross boat paddle maneuvers thanks to Harold Deal.

For all that FS has not caught on in Canada one of its roots IS in heeling over a large tandem and paddling it solo. Adding cross maneuvers more than doubles the possibilities in FreeStyle vsCS.(More because you can add cross heeled maneuvers).

But its not necessary. I cannot think of any way you need to go in a canoe that CS does not supply.

I will one up you PK for fun.. I did CS ( a fast spin in place with a dozen revolutions) in an Old Town XL Tripper. Yep its possible in almost any boat, though I would be careful of delta designs with the width down low.

The fact that some of us have fallen ga ga for fancy boats is not as much that they paddle better than others, (though all are "honest boats" that heel without abrupt changes in secondary stability) but that if you have to spend hours practicing it feels better to do that in a spiffy boat rather than a work boat.
Some people like to drive a Mercedes, others a Toyota Corolla. Both basically do the same job.


Canadian Style can be done with a stout stick too or a dowel..this actually could be practical..try taking a five foot stick from your local beaver dam and paddle with it.


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PostPosted: July 27th, 2009, 9:19 am 
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Guys,

I didn't mean to dis a paddling icon like Pat Moore. Anyone who knows Charlie knows he is prone to making provocative comments and then standing back to see what develops (sound like somebody else here? :oops: ). It's a way to get folks to think outside the paddle's box. I'm quite sure CW holds Moore in high esteem.

I would love to see that video. Did he make slicing recoveries or out of water placements? Did the shovel have a grip or was it one of those long, straight handles. That's what I thought he was referring to as a "gravedigger's" shovel, but I'm not hip to shovel terminology (although I can dig guys who are).

Still, after trying a Quimby for the first time last week, I'm not sure the shovel has any place in canoeing except maybe to bury your poops.

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PostPosted: July 27th, 2009, 10:22 am 
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Battenkiller wrote:
I didn't mean to dis a paddling icon like Pat Moore. Anyone who knows Charlie knows he is prone to making provocative comments and then standing back to see what develops (sound like somebody else here? :oops: ). It's a way to get folks to think outside the paddle's box. I'm quite sure CW holds Moore in high esteem.


I took Charlie into account, having met him on a few occasions, but thought some additional discussion was needed for a public forum. I saw the vid years ago and can't recall the varietal of shovel. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of it myself either. That same evening I saw another fellow do an entire freestyle routine while standing in the canoe complete with all the required elements. That was more amazing to me as a paddler, and still holds more intrigue for me these years later. Though I wish I could answer you about the Grumman and the shovel.

PK


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PostPosted: July 27th, 2009, 10:38 am 
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PK,

At AFS there was a kid in my group who had some, shall we say... issues, who kept standing in the boat and doing better than any of us. In addition, he was using a shorty paddle with a tiny blade. He was able to get great turns just by bending over, automatically pitching the bow downwards. His attitude was definitely one of "don't really want to be here but mom dragged me along", but I immediately saw the potential in adding these moves to the standard kneeling elements.

One of the impressions that I was left with was that this was an aging-out... OK, I'll be blunt... practically a geriatric subset of the paddling community. We estimated the median age at AFS to be about 60. If the movement is to regather momentum, it must draw on the next generation of paddlers. We've all seen what kids can do when left unrestrained by convention, whether it's on a skateboard or a bicycle of even a guitar. Put them in little sport canoes, let them observe and then watch them do their stuff. I'm quite sure they'd quickly put the best current paddlers to shame.

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PostPosted: July 27th, 2009, 10:47 am 
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Back to this asym vs sym topic with the element of standing in a canoe added.

I am just a thrasher poler but have seen Harry Rock pole elegantly and effortlessly (of course standing) and using weight shift and heel to go forward backward..all the boat moves we associate with Canadian Style and FreeStyle.. But standing with a pole. He does this on flatwater as well as rivers and streams.

His favorite hull is a MR Explorer.. I think that any waterline shape can be changed by stepping forward and back..Does symmetry matter in this case?

The more I think about it the more the paddler moves in a boat the more the boat can be like silly putty...moldable to fit a certain characteristic at a certain place in time. This is of course on flatwater and not covering those situations where you need to wear your boat like a pair of well fitting jeans.

There might be a walker at AFS next year. The younger generation wants to do enders..the older generation gets a head rush out of a simple stern skid.


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PostPosted: July 27th, 2009, 10:55 am 
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Dirk-Barends wrote:
Also the stability may have changed a bit, because I found my Kevlar Fusion Osprey a bit less stable than the older style one that I test paddled the year before. But that could also be because of the lighter weight. Also it seems a bit faster?

Image


Old age and vertigo taking hold a bit early? Paddler subjectivity? These are possibilities as well. :wink:

BTW, nice stacked-hand form. Nice inside circle as well. Did you create that trail by paddling on the onside alone?

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PostPosted: July 27th, 2009, 11:06 am 
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littleredcanoe wrote:
His favorite hull is a MR Explorer.. I think that any waterline shape can be changed by stepping forward and back..Does symmetry matter in this case?


To a degree, I think it does. As one end gets increasing pinched in as more and more asymmetry is added, travel to that end becomes harder due to reduced buoyancy. Of course, that mean not as much travel will be required to effect a change in pitch, so maybe it's a moot point.

Marc and I were talking about the kid in question and he said that there weren't really any rules against standing, so I bet it won't be long before all the old farts are reduced to teacher/judge status. :wink:

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PostPosted: July 27th, 2009, 11:12 am 
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BK, I agree the FS crowd isn't getting any younger. But then again, the canoe isn't normally a young person's craft either. I'm not sure it really matters... to me.

Back to this thread.. I agree that that standing can have huge benefits with regard to bow and stern pitch. Beyond the difficulty of balance, every FS maneuver gets easier with increased pitch. Thus a post on a high kneel requires less quality technique beyond balance than a post with your butt firmly on the seat. But balancing and crawling about a 13 foot canoe ala Karen Knight, or walking about the canoe elegantly is magical in itself, and adds to the interpretive aspect of freestyle. Regardless, once we get beyond just enjoing messing about in canoes... it's not really that important. But it's fun to mess about in canoes and see what is possible.

PK


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PostPosted: July 27th, 2009, 11:22 am 
Battenkiller wrote:
Dirk-Barends wrote:
Also the stability may have changed a bit, because I found my Kevlar Fusion Osprey a bit less stable than the older style one that I test paddled the year before. But that could also be because of the lighter weight. Also it seems a bit faster?
[...]

Old age and vertigo taking hold a bit early? Paddler subjectivity? These are possibilities as well. :wink:

BTW, nice stacked-hand form. Nice inside circle as well. Did you create that trail by paddling on the onside alone?

No hit and switch from me here!
Although I do occasionally switch sides for a change in muscles used,
and it is important for me to be able to paddle equally well on both sides:
huge advantage in wind, waves and currents!
But indeed this is the BIG inside circle I was practicing at the German Kringelfieber 2009 FreeStyle meeting.
(Probably the only move I can do reasonably well :)

Paddler subjectivity? Can you measure fun?

The 7.5 lbs (3.5 kg) difference in weight between my Mad River Pearl 13'5" in kevlar and in fiberglass
also seemed to cause a slight stability difference, as I remember from about 18 years ago.

Dirk Barends


Last edited by Guest on July 28th, 2009, 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: July 27th, 2009, 3:45 pm 
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Quote:
The 7.5 lbs (3.5 kg) difference in weight between my Mad River Pearl 13'5" in kevlar and in fiberglass
also seemed to cause a slight stability difference, as I remember from about 18 years ago.

Dirk Barends



Wow that's great. The weight difference in ME compared to 18 years ago causes a slight stability difference :oops:


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PostPosted: July 28th, 2009, 2:21 am 
littleredcanoe wrote:
Dirk-Barends wrote:
The 7.5 lbs (3.5 kg) difference in weight between my Mad River Pearl 13'5" in kevlar and in fiberglass
also seemed to cause a slight stability difference, as I remember from about 18 years ago.

Dirk Barends

Wow that's great. The weight difference in ME compared to 18 years ago causes a slight stability difference :oops:

I now weigh a bit less than 20 years ago, when I didn't have a solo canoe, but even so :wink:

When I read about FreeStyle in the CanoeSport Journal then, I was very
intrigued about that kind of paddling. Because of a picture of a Mad River
Pearl solo canoe in that magazine, I asked Mad River if they still sold them,
as the Pearl was not in the cataloque anymore in 1990. Turned out they had
two older ones lying around, a blue 32 lbs fiberglass and a 24 lbs kevlar one
in sand color. Obviously I wanted the kevlar one. The MRC dealer in Holland,
Arij van der Kooij, who was also curious about this kind of boats,
decided to get both of them to Holland. Some time later, I met some people
who had paddled the fiberglass Pearl, who, after paddling in my boat,
said they found my kevlar one less stable... Personally I just couldn't
believe it! But when I had the chance to paddle the fiberglass one, I had to
admit that indeed there was a difference in handling and perhaps stability.

Dirk Barends


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PostPosted: July 28th, 2009, 7:26 am 
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BK commented on the effect of antisymmetry when shifting weight and he is right if all other things are equal although from a technical standpoint (is there another kind?) it is a function of fineness regardless of symmetry. A fine ended boat will trim further down in the ends than a full ended boat and have )usually) less stability.

The MR explorer has relatively full ends. Jim Henry called it the pick-up truck of canoes. I talked to Harry Rock about poling boats and he told me that the explorer was ideal for poling because of the fullness carried forward that, in effect, allowed him to edge the boat by shifting back and forth. I tried poling with a number of "high performance boats" and found it a pretty unsatisfying experience compared to the Explorer.

Those of you who have Freeship or Nautilus can easily trim the boat down at the ends and calculate the stability.

I have no idea what changes were made to the newer Osprey. If I calculate the stability of the original lines a 10 pound change in boat weight gives less than a 1% reduction in stability. As I mentioned earlier a lot can happen when molds are replaced.

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