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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 10th, 2009, 7:03 pm 
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And at DragonSlayer, we intend to make it tough enough to take a pounding in WW.


Thats cause you have a cheap test pilot...Al.


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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 10th, 2009, 9:18 pm 
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FY virtual or real I, John Kaz sells a set of 4 16' ash rails for $60. Presumably he makes money doing this.

http://www.cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php?t=7961063


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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 10th, 2009, 9:56 pm 
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Glenn MacGrady wrote:
FY virtual or real I, John Kaz sells a set of 4 16' ash rails for $60. Presumably he makes money doing this.

http://www.cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php?t=7961063


Well, with all the woodworking equipment we have at DragonSlayer, maybe we'll see if we can't sell enough rails of our own making to get ours for free. Buying the wood in the rough (probably what Kaz does) and planing it ourselves, we can get a lot of canoe rails out of $100 worth of wood. Plus, properly air-dried wood is more resilient than kiln-dried, making for a tougher canoe.

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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 11th, 2009, 10:40 am 
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Glenn MacGrady wrote:
FY virtual or real I, John Kaz sells a set of 4 16' ash rails for $60. Presumably he makes money doing this.


It's pretty obvious that there are people out there that are willing to work for significantly different wages. I've found more than one guy working in some small obscure place that is willing to do quality composite repair, custom woodwork, outfitting, etc for much less than it would cost me to buy the material and do it myself.

PK


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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 11th, 2009, 1:39 pm 
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This is beginning to sound like most canoe start-ups.

Got an offer from a virtual Bluegrass group that doesn't have very high standards but the pay is just as good as Dragginslayer. I think I will take them up on it and retire again from the boat biz. Just too frustrating for and old geezer like me.

Maybe canoe building is a young person's game:D

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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 11th, 2009, 1:55 pm 
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pknoerr wrote:
Glenn MacGrady wrote:
FY virtual or real I, John Kaz sells a set of 4 16' ash rails for $60. Presumably he makes money doing this.


It's pretty obvious that there are people out there that are willing to work for significantly different wages. I've found more than one guy working in some small obscure place that is willing to do quality composite repair, custom woodwork, outfitting, etc for much less than it would cost me to buy the material and do it myself.

PK


That may be true for the folks you mention, but if Kaz has a waiting list for his boats (which I'm pretty sure he does) then he'd have to be even stupider than virtual BK to give his time away for less than he charges for labor to make a boat.

Much more likely, he's smart like the real BK and keeps cutting his wood while he's at the machine, then high-grades it to get the very best for his boats. I did that for 30 years in the musical instrument trade and although I never quite earned my hourly shop rate (which was grotesquely high), I made lots of money and got most of my wood, parts, and materials for free. :wink:

Now get out there and dance with St. George. Looks like our good friend Mr. Winters has jumped ship with his 14 footer... just when we finally located that rascal Rob Haslam and decided that the Winters boat was seaworthy enough to add to our fleet. :-?

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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 13th, 2009, 11:35 pm 
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Well, it's now February 2, 2010 - Groundhog's Day (yes, back to the future) - and lots of stuff has happened. I was away for a week and when I came back I found that Al had built us a spray room for painting our boats. He used the leftover lumber we had from making the walls to make a floor frame, then he planked it over with the old pallet wood that Haslam had planed out for us. It looks real nice, and there's enough extra pallet wood to put a floor in the showroom as well.

Al showed up the next day with a giant fan that he found in Stu's friend Bill's barn they were tearing down. It was used to get the smell of cow out of the barn, but now it will be used to get the smell of polyurethane out of the DragonSlayer steel building. Al made a sliding door for the spray room, and after he seals it, he's going to put four furnace filters in it to get the dust out of the air as it comes into the room. We'll be spraying paint in a dust free environment. :D

Al and I worked really hard all week, and guess what?.... We got a St. George 15 stripper all done. Lot's more to say about that later, but for now I need to discuss a most distressing finding....

I finally figured out how to use that "XL" spreadsheet program that frozentripper had me buy. I made a column for everything I could think of. I even made one titled "Beer", which is something that may not been in enough abundance to keep FT working away on the bean counting. So I made my own bean counter from the spreadsheet thing, and, ya know... it seems to work. In fact, it works a little too well if you ask me.

I call it the "DragonSlayer Bean Counter", because... it counts beans.

Here is a picture of what it looks like on the 27" LED backlit monitor of the DragonSlayer iMac:

Image


Pretty impressive, eh? :wink:


Now here's the part that I don't particularly like:

Image


Notice the figure at the bottom of the page. It's in red for a reason. DragonSlayer is already running over $50,000 in the red and we haven't even opened the doors for business. Half our beans are gone and we haven't even made a single canoe yet. I'm beginning to think this wasn't the brightest idea I ever had. :-?

Anyway, kinda takes the wind out of our sails to find this out. We have our prototype all built, but Lake Clear is hard as a rock and we can't test it. So we're gonna finish the plug and build the mold anyway. Then we're gonna go ahead and make a few boats. I'm gonna see if I can get LRC to take one down with her to the Florida FreeStyle Symposium in March to get some feedback. It nobody there likes it, we'll know we're on the right track for our target market. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 16th, 2009, 9:58 am 
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Winter just seems to drag on here up at Lake Clear. Especially so ever since Al's wife Edna kicked him out of the house two weeks ago.

Guess who's now living in the new spray room at the DragonSlayer canoe manufacturing site?

Yep, Edna kicked him out for philandering with the young daughter of one of the gals from the Ladies Auxiliary of the Church of Obscure Saints. Well... attempted philandering, 'cause all Al really did was give her a ride home and then pass out in her driveway. Turns out that Al stumbled in to say "Hi" to the ladies late one Saturday evening. As he was leaving, one of the young girls (her name is Carol) asked if he could give her a ride home. It was minus 14 American degrees outside (minus even more of those funny Canadian degrees) and her car wouldn't start. Al offered to drop her off in Saranac Lake on his way home. As she was getting out, Al reached over to try to kiss her. Instead, he fell over and got clunked in the head by the closing car door.

In Al's mind, he was a cheatin' rapscallion. In Carol's mind... well, she woke up and said, "Oh, that poor old guy. I guess his car must have died right there in my driveway last night." In the Town of Saranac Lake's mind - who all just happened to see Al's car parked there on their way to Sunday Mass the following morning...... :o

So there you have it. Al's now gone through three wives, and I'm stuck dealing with him full time... with all of his obnoxious habits.


10 things I can't stand about Al:

1. He smokes more than rotten wood on a campfire.

2. He takes his false teeth out and leaves them on the workbench overnight.

3. He drinks at least two sixes of Budweiser a day.

4. He stacks his empties up into neat little pyramids, then knocks them over on his way out to the Porta-John to pee.

5. He never actually makes it to the Porta-John, but writes his name into the snow bank for everybody to see the next day.

6. He seldom bathes or changes his clothes, and now that he's here and there's no running water.... :x

7. He plays country music all night long, and sings along on all the choruses.

8. He talks to himself while he works.

9. He cackles at just about everything he says to himself.

10. He is beset with the most noxious gas emissions I have ever seen, heard or smelt.

I don't have a clue where all this gas is coming from. There's really not much volume to the entire man, but he'd sure be able to adjust the JWinters gas-powered seat in a flash. All I've ever seen him ingest is beer (which explains why the smell can cut right through the acrid stench of styrene), but I'm beginning to suspect where some of the DragonSlayer beans are disappearing to. Al must be eating them on the sly.


However, the one thing I do like about Al...

He's a regular fiberglassing dynamo. :D

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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 18th, 2009, 5:32 pm 
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Location: Lower Saranac Lake, NY
BK;

What have you scheduled for costs of tooling your plug and making a two piece mold?

Are you going to make tank molds or make them WeNoNah/ Bell style?


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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 18th, 2009, 9:45 pm 
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Charlie Wilson wrote:
BK;

What have you scheduled for costs of tooling your plug and making a two piece mold?

Are you going to make tank molds or make them WeNoNah/ Bell style?


Still trying to figure that out, Charlie. I'm not sure how many gallons of resin and tooling gel to get. We'll need three molds at the beginning. I "ordered" 30 gallons of tooling resin from Fiberglast ($1280) and 480 yards of fiberglass mat from Sweet Composites ($810). I still need to get tooling gel, mold release, MEKP, and other incidentals... maybe $500 should cover them? At any rate, your input would be invaluable since mold making is a dark art to both myself and the virtual BK.

Not sure of the mold terminology, but we will be making them similar to the ones you used at PBW. Two-piece split down the centerline and with substantial flanges in case we decide to go to vacuum infusion (likely) at a later date. Again, any light you can shed will be helpful.

Labor costs will be for Al alone since the game is set up so that I don't draw a salary. My "pay" will hopefully come in the future in the form of profits. I'm estimating two weeks to make a polished plug ($500 materials) and another two weeks to make a mold out of the plug. That's a little less than $3080 at Al's hourly rate (plus my share of his SS contribution). We will also pull a few throw away hulls from the mold to season it and to make sure it is working well before we start laminating pricey Kevlar or carbon fiber cloth into anything. Figure another thousand or so.

So... 1280+810+3080+500+1000 = about $6700/mold (if we need all of the materials I ordered so far for each mold, which I doubt).

Your thoughts on this figure?

Also, what do you think of the "St. George 15"? It's actually a Joe Ziemba design (Carrying Place Canoe) called the "SoulMate" that I always thought was very "Yostian". Kinda like a 15' WF. Interestingly, my 27" monitor makes it possible to enlarge the PDF I posted to exact life size (one side only). I laid the WF plans over it, and it's scarily similar up to the 4" waterline, widens ever so slightly then returns to the same 30" beam as the WF. It has a finer entry, so I expect it will be faster, but a little less buoyancy in the ends so it won't hold as much gear as a WF lengthened to 15' would.

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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 19th, 2009, 10:12 am 
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Solo molds need ~ 9 layers of E-Glass mat and 5 of E-glass cloth, so about a hundred yards of 38" mat and 60 yds of cloth to do both sides, using 15 gal of resin or more. Tandem molds, being longer, wider and hence floppier need another pass - two of mat and one of cloth, and more resin.

Tooling gel is ~$200/ 40#pail. The Duratec products to tool your plug will cost another ~$200 and the wet/dry sandpaper is pricey too - figure several sleeves of 220, 320, 400, 600, 800, 100, 1200, 1500 and 2000, and change water and wipe rags often!


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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 19th, 2009, 2:30 pm 
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Battenkiller wrote:


Also, what do you think of the "St. George 15"? It's actually a Joe Ziemba design (Carrying Place Canoe) called the "SoulMate" that I always thought was very "Yostian". Kinda like a 15' WF. Interestingly, my 27" monitor makes it possible to enlarge the PDF I posted to exact life size (one side only). I laid the WF plans over it, and it's scarily similar up to the 4" waterline, widens ever so slightly then returns to the same 30" beam as the WF. It has a finer entry, so I expect it will be faster, but a little less buoyancy in the ends so it won't hold as much gear as a WF lengthened to 15' would.


Well, you may have legal problems, but, more importantly . . . Once again, you seem to be ignoring the desires of your marketing consultant and primary customer.

The description of that canoe over at Carrying Place says it is "responsive with loads up to 300 pounds".

So much for the suggesting "canoodling" :rofl: from a week or so ago. And, as your marketing consultant, I am loathe to be paid in a free demo canoe that can't carry me, my fishing gear, and food and gear for even an overnight trip comfortably.

I'm afraid I'll have to save my pennies until I can afford a Starfire from Colden.


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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 19th, 2009, 8:13 pm 
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The ST George will be faster than WildFire because it is a foot longer, but it will take more effort to achieve that speed because the wetted surface has increased. Depending on the rocker you build into the stripper/plug boat it will likely not turn as well, again, because it is longer.

Your marketing consultant needs you to do a takeoff / splash off Bell's RockStar, the best new river canoe for the big guy!


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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 19th, 2009, 8:28 pm 
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Either Charlie is a really honest guy willing to send business the competition :clap: , or he knows I'm too big a cheapskate to ever buy a high end canoe :oops: . Maybe both.


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 Post subject: Re: DragonSlayer Canoes
PostPosted: November 19th, 2009, 8:39 pm 
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native brookie wrote:
And, as your marketing consultant, I am loathe to be paid in a free demo canoe that can't carry me, my fishing gear, and food and gear for even an overnight trip comfortably.


Well, there are dozens of wonderful tandems (the StarFire is one of them) you can choose from if that is what you need, but DragonSlayer is a solo canoe company at this time. You won't find too many dedicated solo canoes that have much more capacity than the St. George/SoulMate. My 16 1/2' Bell Northstar (since everyone is naming names) tandem is only rated at 250-500 pounds, and is at its most "responsive" at around 350 pounds (about 3 1/2" draft). We regularly load ours to over 500 pounds (570 only brings it to the 5" waterline) and it paddles fine, although I'd hardly describe it as "nimble" at that weight.

A Bell/PB/Colden WildFire is a foot shorter than our lovely St. George and the same 30" in beam at the widest point. The St. George appears to have slightly less volume in the ends, but since it is a 15' boat rather than a 14', I believe it will carry more weight at equivalent waterlines. The specs on a WF are 240# at the 3" waterline and 340# at the 4" waterline. So at the 4" waterline, I figure the St. George will probably displace ~350#. But as I mentioned above, the SM/SG widens above the 4" waterline more than the WF, so there will be an even greater difference between the two boats at the 4 1/2" and 5" waterlines.


Below are approximate displacement curves for the three boats in question:


Image



Few canoes travel at their optimum displacement when trip loaded, especially at the beginning when you have a full barrel of food. If they are loaded at the optimum weight when carrying a tripping load, they will be underloaded when traveling solo and unladen. I'd say that most loaded trippers draw about 4 1/2" of water at the start of a trip. The St. George 15 should displace ~410# at a 4 1/2" draft.

Just how much do you plan on carrying?

Charlie, I totally agree with you on the handling characteristics of the WF and St. G. The SG won't accelerate as quickly as the WF, but may have a better glide between strokes. Don't let Joe Zimba's quoted rocker figure (2 1/4") deceive, however. It's pretty obvious when the boat is blown up full size that it has close to 3" of rocker extending progressively from the center to the end stations (each 6" from the ends). I think it will turn just fine. Biggest difference I see is that it won't be as "hot" as it is heeled over. The SG flares more progressively above the 4" waterline, while the WF is straighter sided between the 4" waterline and the shoulder. Still plenty of fun to paddle, but maybe not as good for competitive FS as a WildFire.

The RockStar? Haven't paddled one yet, but it looks like a tub on flat water. Not much rocker for a river boat, and a pretty wide waterline @ 28". Only sports a L/W ratio of 6.2 compared with a Merlin II (6.9 in spite of being 6" shorter). But yes, a little bit more capacity for our big dude from Maine. :wink:

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