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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: April 3rd, 2021, 1:24 pm 
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Joined: June 28th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1906
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
ar83 wrote:
Mike I’m going to do this outside in the backyard. What kind of mask should I get? The videos I’ve watched people don’t seem to be wearing one, but I can’t wrap my head around that


I would get something like this

ImagePB140063 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Seriously, for one-boat sanding purposes you could probably get away with a cloth mask. But I wouldn’t; I can’t.

I wear a dust respirator when sanding. I should have done so starting long ago; over time I have become sensitized to various dusts, Vinylester especially. Poly gel coat too.

When doing major (even minor) sanding on a hull I wear a respirator, goggles, gloves and long sleeves, sometimes an old lab coat covering (probably should wear a full coveralls). In the shop I use the dust extractor, and I still have to shower and change clothes immediately.

Eventual dust sensitization is the bane of many a boat builder, and may be one reason the financially successful guys hire shop monkeys to do the actual work, and largely stay off the floor themselves. It gets to us shade tree boat tinkerers eventually, especially if we didn’t take PPE precautions decades earlier.

BTW, if you are going to be sanding on the hull, on sawhorses or something similar, having a rigid, stable platform, with the canoe securely held in place, is beyond beneficial. Sanding on a hull that is wiggling around is a waste of effort. Or worse, sanding on a hull that is slowly creeping sideways unnoticed ‘til it falls to the ground – not that I have ever had that happen to me, certainly not multiple times, not to me – is advantageous.

Even tightening a couple cam straps around the hull and platform/saw horses is better than nothing, provided the platform/sawhorses themselves are un-wobbly rigid. I can’t wrap my head around running an RO sander on a hull that is shaking like a bowl full of jelly.

You don’t need a mask or respirator for the paint part. I would do that inside and open the windows and doors and maybe run a small exhaust fan. If you are planning to do the painting outside I’d at least do so under cover (tarp, carport, kick the missus off the screen porch). Bugs, pollen, blowing leaves, bird shit, sudden drizzle – none are helpful on still wet paint

More on sawhorses for boat work and other tasks later.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: April 3rd, 2021, 1:41 pm 
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Joined: March 10th, 2007, 1:44 pm
Posts: 120
Location: Mississauga ON
Mike McCrea wrote:
ar83 wrote:
Mike I’m going to do this outside in the backyard. What kind of mask should I get? The videos I’ve watched people don’t seem to be wearing one, but I can’t wrap my head around that



You don’t need a mask or respirator for the paint part. I would do that inside and open the windows and doors and maybe run a small exhaust fan. If you are planning to do the painting outside I’d at least do so under cover (tarp, carport, kick the missus off the screen porch). Bugs, pollen, blowing leaves, bird shit, sudden drizzle – none are helpful on still wet paint


With marine paints, I'd say an organic vapour mask is a must, I've run into problems painting a small area with the breeze at my back, within minutes I had a major headache, when I did the later coats wearing the mask - no problems. Having a friend who could not enter a building where poly/vinlyester products were being used has made me extra cautious even with epoxy, and I wear the same mask if working with large batches of epoxy resin.

Other paints may be OK but why take the risk for the cost of a good mask, last one I bought cost less than the quart of paint :)


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: April 3rd, 2021, 2:59 pm 
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Joined: June 28th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1906
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
Peters wrote:
With marine paints, I'd say an organic vapour mask is a must, I've run into problems painting a small area with the breeze at my back, within minutes I had a major headache, when I did the later coats wearing the mask - no problems. Having a friend who could not enter a building where poly/vinlyester products were being used has made me extra cautious even with epoxy, and I wear the same mask if working with large batches of epoxy resin.

Other paints may be OK but why take the risk for the cost of a good mask, last one I bought cost less than the quart of paint :)


So far I have not had problems using EZ-Poxy or RustoleumTopside, or even enamel paints in the shop with the exhaust fan running/window open. Of course I may again be tempting future sensitization fate, so I would agree; more PPE is better than less PPE.

I have been a tad woozy after using multiple cans of spray paint, even with doors and windows open and a shop exhaust fan on high. BTW, don’t spray 3 cans of red spray paint while wearing Crocs; polka dot feet is not a good look.

On oddball benefit to my shop layout; when we built the shop, as part of a major house renovation, we had one old window leftover. I have a small shop office, with a window to the outside, and I put the leftover window on the interior office wall. I call it my “Louie De Palma window”

ImageP2260575 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

When I run the shop exhaust fan I can open my to-the-outside office window, and the interior Louie De Palma window, and have a one-way fresh air flow refuge to escape any stanky shop work.

The shop office is only 84 SF, so it is easy to keep warm in the winter

ImageP3050602 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

OK, truth be told, I installed that interior window thinking it might be handy if I had really long pieces of wood on the bench. I have yet to use it for that purpose, but damn it is handy for fresh air.

Or for yelling out the office window at my occasional shop helpers.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: April 22nd, 2021, 12:19 pm 
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Joined: March 15th, 2021, 8:27 am
Posts: 10
Hey Mike, me again!

I was hoping to keep this logo on the canoe when I attempt the re-paint, but I imagine the sanding will take it off. Paluski it seems has changed away from this logo, and I reached out to them via their website but I've had no response back. I can't seem to locate the image with an online search either, so that I could have it printed out at a vinyl shop.

Do you have any suggestions for how I can keep this? My current thought is to have my artistic friend come over and either trace/draw it for me, make a stencil out of that and spray paint when I'm done painting the rest of the boat? Is there a another way I could go to get the logo done as a vinyl decal?

Thanks again!


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: April 24th, 2021, 6:30 am 
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Joined: June 28th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1906
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
ar83 wrote:
I was hoping to keep this logo on the canoe when I attempt the re-paint, but I imagine the sanding will take it off. Paluski it seems has changed away from this logo, and I reached out to them via their website but I've had no response back. I can't seem to locate the image with an online search either, so that I could have it printed out at a vinyl shop.

Do you have any suggestions for how I can keep this? My current thought is to have my artistic friend come over and either trace/draw it for me, make a stencil out of that and spray paint when I'm done painting the rest of the boat? Is there a another way I could go to get the logo done as a vinyl decal?


I’m sure a vinyl shop could replicate the logo if you brought them a decent photograph and dimensions, but the set up costs do not make sense for one or two copies of something. Years ago the set up cost to have the Duckhead logos printed on vinyl was something like $50, but over time I had hundreds of those printed and the set up costwas a one-time charge.

I have not had great results using stencils and spray paint, and cutting out a decent stencil is a lot of work to replicate a logo on each side of the hull.

My first thought would be to tape a length of thin paper over it (doesn’t actually need to be tracing paper, just something you can see the image through), trace the outline of the tree thing and Paluski on the paper, lay carbon paper on the back of that trace and tape it back in place, run a pencil around the outline, take the paper off and use a fine bristled paintbrush to fill in the space between the carbon traced outline.

Just like the Gogetch painting post above. Works for me to put the shop Gogetch or new boat name on a hull.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: April 29th, 2021, 4:39 pm 
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Joined: July 9th, 2003, 11:48 am
Posts: 1606
Location: Back to Winnipeg
Mike, I know you are an advocate of wet sanding before applying a new coat, but I'm not clear on its advantages over just giving it a fine-girt sanding? (there's loads of YouTube videos on boat repair/painting that just seem to go with a 320-grit scuffing between coats)

What's the diff?

If I do any wet sanding (on a pretty scratched-up old hull), would it be most important before the first new coat, or between coats?

Thanks if you can clarify the benefits of a wet sand vs. fine grit. Not that it's a huge difference in effort.

Cheers, Pat.

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Learning to paddle is like learning a language:
It's easy to learn the basics, but will you be understood in a strong wind?


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: April 30th, 2021, 6:30 am 
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Posts: 1906
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
yarnellboat wrote:
Mike, I know you are an advocate of wet sanding before applying a new coat, but I'm not clear on its advantages over just giving it a fine-girt sanding? (there's loads of YouTube videos on boat repair/painting that just seem to go with a 320-grit scuffing between coats)

If I do any wet sanding (on a pretty scratched-up old hull), would it be most important before the first new coat, or between coats?


Pat, for an initial sanding, before painting, even if I have laid a coat of epoxy resin, I’ll sometimes use an RO sander and foam interface pad, with something like 220 or finer disks. And then of course wash the dust off the hull. Even in that “sometimes” it is easy to sand too far and cut completely through an epoxy coat. Definitely easier to cut through a paint coat with an RO, and probably when hand sanding dry.

Between paint coats, provided it is warm enough outside, I prefer to wet sand, using a strip of wet sanding paper wrapped around a small sponge, dipping it in a bucket of water. The sand paper doesn’t clog as fast, and I can rinse the sand paper relatively clean in a bucket of water and keep using it ‘til most of the abrasiveness is gone.

In part that wet sanding technique prevents me from getting too dry-sanding aggressive and cutting all the way through the last coat of paint. And, when wet sanding, it is easily apparent which areas I have not scuffed up sufficiently; the water will bead up on the still glossy areas after rinsing, and I go back and spot wet-sand those still glossy water beading places and rinse again. That is not as visibly apparent when dry sanding.

As mentioned previously, I have dry sanded and scuffed inside the shop when it was too cold outside for hose and bucket work and then, instead of rinsing the dust off, run a tack cloth over the hull.

All things being equal effort-wise I’d rather hose rinse off the dust and be beaded-water assured that I have thoroughly scuffed the entire hull in preparation for a subsequent paint coat.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: April 30th, 2021, 9:49 am 
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Location: Back to Winnipeg
Thanks. I tried a quick Google of wet sanding vs. dry sanding, and it was an overwhelming worm hole of technical and competing information. Since I'm painting a scratched canoe and not a hot rod, it was way more info than I wanted! P.

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Learning to paddle is like learning a language:
It's easy to learn the basics, but will you be understood in a strong wind?


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: May 1st, 2021, 4:02 pm 
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Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
yarnellboat wrote:
Thanks. I tried a quick Google of wet sanding vs. dry sanding, and it was an overwhelming worm hole of technical and competing information. Since I'm painting a scratched canoe and not a hot rod, it was way more info than I wanted! P.


Aside from the question of sanding preferences I had the first close up inspection of the four exposed-outside-for-9-months paint test panels today. How time flies; I thought I hung those up only a few months ago. Yet another stupid-simple rudimentary shop experiment, but already bearing some early results.

https://www.canoetripping.net/forums/fo ... post124638

Make of those early results what you will. Ask again later.

FWIW a rolled and tipped coat of epoxy will hide minor gel coat scratches much better then multiple coats of even Topside paints. Let cure, sand, roll and tip top coat depending on what you want to spend on paint. For a “keeper” canoe I figure the effort and expanse is worth a few extra bucks.

Or, if you want to skeezily flip the canoe, and I think better of you then that, paint the exterior with a (accent on the) heavy coat of deck and porch paint, that stuff will fill in deep scratches and wide gel coat cracks and let the buyer beware 

Personally I will say nope to any used canoe painted battleship grey with that thick shit.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: May 3rd, 2021, 1:55 pm 
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Posts: 10
Just as an update to the Paluski logo, a graphic designer friend of mine found the font (oddly named Tiger Rag STD), and was able to re-produce the maple leaf design easily as well. I just got the decals in the mail, and they turned out great!


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: May 3rd, 2021, 3:43 pm 
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Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
Good to have friends like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: May 22nd, 2021, 7:43 am 
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Joined: August 16th, 2011, 8:02 pm
Posts: 274
Location: Edmonton area
Mike, can you elaborate on what you mean when you use the term "tipped"? As in "rolled and tipped"?
What does tipped mean? Thanks, cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: May 22nd, 2021, 10:04 am 
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If you search "roll and tip painting" on YouTube you'll find more than you need. Though Mike may have some canoe-specific pointers or lessons learned. P.

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Learning to paddle is like learning a language:
It's easy to learn the basics, but will you be understood in a strong wind?


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: May 22nd, 2021, 4:39 pm 
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Joined: June 28th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1906
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
guyfawkes041 wrote:
What does tipped mean?


In the US it means 20% of the bill for the meal. And 2X that if the waitress is a longstanding diner-prank buddy, had the cook hide an extra sausage under your poutine, or brought you an extra thick slice of Scrapple, and your entire gut-busting breakfast, with neverending coffee refills, cost a whopping $4.50.

Seriously, a whooping buck to put up with my stuff?

Rolling and “tipping out”, with paint, varnish, etc means something entirely different

The described and photographed rolling/tipping/wet sanding process is in the link on page 1.

yarnellboat wrote:
If you search "roll and tip painting" on YouTube you'll find more than you need. Though Mike may have some canoe-specific pointers or lessons learned. P.


In a TL:DR sense, Painting a Canoe Hull:

Scrub the hull clean. Seriously no-contaminates left behind clean. Do not use a car wash product that leaves some wax or techtechy polymer. Dawn detergent will do. For an encrusted filthy hull a “magic mix” or 50% white vinegar and 50% Dawn (no water) makes an amazingly effective cleanser.

If composite, lightly sand it, and then wash it again. Rinse thoroughly whatever detergent agent you use. Let dry.

Bring it inside if you have space. Eh, make inside space; dead bugs trapped in fresh paint coats are a PITA

Tape off the outwales, deck plates, painter line holes, etc.

Use a short 4 ½” foam “cigar” roller and sized roller pan. The higher the quality foam cigar the better. Dollar Store specials not recommended. A big box hardware store “kit” that comes with a roller handle, sleeve and narrow pan will do; buy a pack of extra foam sleeves.

Roll out one side of the hull, from center line to outwale. I find it easiest to do 18 inches, keel line to gunwale, at a time, and then shuffle further down alongside the hull to do the next 18 inches, moving stem to stern (or vice versa).

Once that half of the hull has been rolled, keel line down to outwale, lightly drag a 2” or 3’ foam brush along the hull in overlapping “streaks”. One stem to the other, walk back, overlapped drag again ‘til you get down to the outwale. The canoe hull of course gets wider amidships, so the foam brush tip out isn’t exactly parallel stokes.

That “tipping out” process removes any orange peel finish, and smoothes out any streaks or sags left by the roller. Half done - but not half assedly - walk around to the other side and repeat.

Let the paint curefor some days temp and humidity, then pick your path forward to a second coat.

Lovingly, attention to detail carefully, repeatedly, going back for areas you missed, wet sand rinse, spot wet sand/rinse the first coat. Or, eh, whatever, at least scuff it up unglossy everywhere, and lay a second coat. Maybe a third.

“Tipping out” may be the most critical part of painting a hull to achieve a quality finish, and you will probably have improved technique by the 2nd or 3rd coat. A single layer of paint is easily scraped thin; if I’m in for a penny - hull staged, washed, sanded and taped, can or quality paint, rollers, brushes and pan at the ready - I’m game for a wait time three-coat pound.

Paint quality does matter.

That TL:DR explanation did become a thick nutshell.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: May 22nd, 2021, 9:09 pm 
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Location: Edmonton area
Got it Mike, and thank you kindly. Your efforts in painting those canoes yielded magnificent results; you are a Jedi.
It, hopefully, will be a good while before I will need to paint my boat, but with your good guidance, I'm sure now that it will be a job that I know will turn out quite well, with wisdom shared by you. Thanks again, cheers.

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