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 Post subject: Paint options
PostPosted: March 29th, 2021, 11:44 am 
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Hello,

I recently bought a used canoe, a Paluski kevlar. The original owner had it repainted at some point from teal, to dark green.

The dark green is now starting to flake away. I'm wondering how I would go about dealing with this? Should I sand down the flaked spots and repaint with Rustoleum Topside? Should I just leave it alone and let it be? Any tips or guidance is appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: March 29th, 2021, 12:00 pm 
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Tough call. I'd be hesitant to paint over a coat that has flaked. But I'd also be hesitant to go to the trouble of removing that whole layer!

Leave it as-is isn't a bad option, it's got a certain character.

Or, match it an appropriate spray paint for plastics (Krylon, Rustloleum, Tremclad,...?) and try touch ups as necessary? That's probably the route I'd go.

If you want to sand off the full layer of dark green, it's not a huge deal, just depends on the time/effort you're into for it. I guess it depends whether you like green!

P.

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Learning to paddle is like learning a language:
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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: March 29th, 2021, 12:14 pm 
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yarnellboat wrote:
Tough call. I'd be hesitant to paint over a coat that has flaked. But I'd also be hesitant to go to the trouble of removing that whole layer!

Leave it as-is isn't a bad option, it's got a certain character.

Or, match it an appropriate spray paint for plastics (Krylon, Rustloleum, Tremclad,...?) and try touch ups as necessary? That's probably the route I'd go.

If you want to sand off the full layer of dark green, it's not a huge deal, just depends on the time/effort you're into for it. I guess it depends whether you like green!

P.


I do like the green! Spray paint then seems easiest. Would something like this work:

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/rust-o ... 1000666137


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: March 29th, 2021, 12:52 pm 
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There seems to be quite a few paints around now that should work, that being one them. I don't have personal experience or memory to compare the different brands or a brand on different materials, but I've taken them at face value, not thought too much about it, and I've never a bad experience - if I'd used one that was a disaster, I'd remember.

Just double check what they say about adhering to plastics, check the reviews too, and follow the instructions re: cleaning, sanding, and primer (if required).

Good luck, Pat.

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Learning to paddle is like learning a language:
It's easy to learn the basics, but will you be understood in a strong wind?


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: March 29th, 2021, 1:02 pm 
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yarnellboat wrote:
There seems to be quite a few paints around now that should work, that being one them. I don't have personal experience or memory to compare the different brands or a brand on different materials, but I've taken them at face value, not thought too much about it, and I've never a bad experience - if I'd used one that was a disaster, I'd remember.

Just double check what they say about adhering to plastics, check the reviews too, and follow the instructions re: cleaning, sanding, and primer (if required).

Good luck, Pat.


Thank you for the help!


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: March 30th, 2021, 8:02 am 
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Joined: June 28th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1913
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
ar83 wrote:
I do like the green! Spray paint then seems easiest.


Spray paint is “easy”, but it sucks in every other way.

You’ll need at least two cans, probably three, for a single coat. If you spray outside and there is the teeniest of breeze half of the paint will blow away, if you hold the spray nozzle closer than recommended to reduce the “blow away” you’ll get drips and sags. If you spray indoors (garage or shop) the aerosolized spray will drift everydamn where; I spray painted one red canoe in the shop and had a pink concrete floor for a year.

Of any paint application choice spray paint would be my last. Plus the result is a very thin layer, and unlike some other paint choices spray paint gets chalky after some years of UV exposure. I’ll never spray paint a boat again.

I would sand the hull with an RO sander and foam interface pad using 150 or 220 grit and scrub it clean. Use painters tape to mask the gunwales. Then use a short foam roller, a roller pan and can of regular enamel, or, better, “topside” paint.

Roll one side of the hull, from keel line to gunwales, then “tip out” that side to remove the pebbly “orange peel” finish or roller streaks by lightly running a foam brush from end to end. Repeat the roll out and tip on the other side. I roll 18” or so at a time, from keel line to gunwales, and work my way along one side of the canoe from end to end, then tip out that side and do the same on the other.

Even cheap Rustoleum enamel, rolled and tipped, will produce a better finish than spray. Something like Rustoleum Topside paint will look and last even better. My top choice would be to use EZ-Poxy Topside paint (pricy but worth it). Second choice something like Rustoleum Topside paint, third choice a can of regular enamel paint.

A quart paint will do two or three coats on a 16’ canoe, and a 2nd or 3rd coat is well worth the effort. To do multiple coats with spray paint you would need at least a half dozen cans, maybe more.

One side rolled and tipped using a Topside paint.

ImagePA261301 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Wet sanded and ready for a 2nd coat

ImagePA311312 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Or this

ImagePA270053 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

To this

ImagePB060044 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

To this (black accent stripe and outfitting optional)

ImagePC110015 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Ask again in a few years; I have a UV and weathering paint experiment underway, using test panels painted with Rustoleum spray, Rustoleum Enamel, Rustoleum Topside and EZ-Poxy.

https://www.canoetripping.net/forums/fo ... de-take-ii

Those test panels have only been exposed for a few months, but the Topside paints are already winning.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: March 30th, 2021, 10:12 am 
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Hi Mike,

Good points on the different quality of paint, and volume of spray cans for multiple coats on full canoes.

Question re: the poster's boat - would you paint over the existing layer that has flaked in places, or do you feel that whole layer should be removed first?

Thanks, Pat.

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Learning to paddle is like learning a language:
It's easy to learn the basics, but will you be understood in a strong wind?


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: March 30th, 2021, 10:26 am 
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yarnellboat wrote:
Hi Mike,

Good points on the different quality of paint, and volume of spray cans for multiple coats on full canoes.

Question re: the poster's boat - would you paint over the existing layer that has flaked in places, or do you feel that whole layer should be removed first?

Thanks, Pat.


I think my plan at this point is to sand it all down, fill in a few cracks with MarineTex epoxy, then paint the whole thing. I'm not entirely sure how much of the green paint will come off with sanding. Any pointers would be helpful. I'm going to use a topside paint. If I wanted to go with a different colour, say yellow or blue, would that matter at all? Or should I stick to the green?


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: March 30th, 2021, 5:44 pm 
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Joined: June 28th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1913
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
yarnellboat wrote:
Question re: the poster's boat - would you paint over the existing layer that has flaked in places, or do you feel that whole layer should be removed first?


I wouldn’t make any color plans or buy any paint until spending an hour with an RO sander and foam interface pad working on the hull.

Any paint, even epoxy topside paints, will scratch through on sharp rocks, etc, so it is better to use a paint color similar to what is/remains underneath.

If, after sanding, the hull is still mostly green, I’d use green paint. If it sands down to mostly teal, which I doubt will happen, go teal. I have a feeling that getting all, or even most, of the hull down to teal with be a (pun) boat load of work.

About the RO sander foam interface pad. That is simply a circular foam pad, with holes that match the RO sander holes, which goes between the (hard surface) of the RO and the sanding disk. There are so many curved surfaces on a canoe that using the flat hard surface of an RO sander is tricky business, and an interface pad makes it much easier.

(Note: I did not now there was such a thing as an interface pad until a couple years ago. They are awesome for canoe sanding)


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: March 31st, 2021, 10:15 am 
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Mike, my current project will be repainting a white canoe (by rolling & tipping a marine paint), so we have different tastes in colours, but I appreciate your input anyway! ;)

P.

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Learning to paddle is like learning a language:
It's easy to learn the basics, but will you be understood in a strong wind?


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: March 31st, 2021, 11:28 am 
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About sanding between paint coats (and other things). My preference, if it is warm out and I am feeling vigorous, is to hand wet sand between coats using 220 or, if I’ve done a really smooth drip and streak free job on the prior pint coat, even 300-ish wet sandpaper. Wet sand the hull, rinse it, (the rinse water beads more on areas that still need scuffing), re-sand any parts that are still glossy/shiney or bumpy/streaky, rinse again. Drips, streaks and sags will not vanish under a second coat.

Wet sanding does mean you have to re-mask the gunwales a couple times, but that is a quick and easy run of painters tape task.

I have painted a couple canoes in the winter, when it wasn’t hose-running temperature outside. I scuffed them thoroughly with a Scotch-brite pad (or two when the first one filled, rinse it clean later) until any shiny gloss was gone ran a tack cloth over the hull, and repainted it without removing the original gunwale tape. A Scotch-brite scuff won’t do much to remove drips or sags, but I wasn’t wet sanding and rinsing on the shop floor.

About doing two or more coats. The second of third coats are both easier and more difficult. Putting a second coat atop the first it is same-color harder to see where you have and have not rolled the second coat of paint, another reason I do each side in 18” increments; that is about as far as I can move a roller while inspecting my work before shuffling down another 18 inches.

But a second/third coat is also easier, or perhaps more accurately, better rolled and tipped. After the first coat I have a more practiced “feel” for how heavily to load and how often to re-load the roller, and how lightly to drag the foam tip out brush to eliminate orange-peel finish or roller streaks. Using a decent quality foam roller, not a Dollar Store special, help a lot. I use 4 inch “cigar” foam rollers, anything longer become problematic for me, especially along the chine curves.

When inspecting the painted hull to identify drips or sags that need special sanding attention, bending and stooping to catch interrupted glare off the shiny hull helps. One of the few times having seven blinding duplex fluorescents in the shop is actually a benefit. I circle the hull multiple times at different angles, and flag any drips or sags with a scrap of painters tape for future sanding reference.

Don’t freak out about the quantity of paint left in a quart can after the first coat; the second/third coats use a lot less. Some boats have drunk in nearly half the quart on the first coat, but I still had enough left for a 2nd and 3rd coat. I have admittedly quit after the second coat, when I’ve done such a superb job rolling and tipping, without any drips, sags or streaks, that I doubted I could do better with a third coat and didn’t want to risk it.

About waiting to choose a paint color. If you really don’t like the, in this case green or teal, changing the color isn’t the end of the world. You will (probably) have enough paint left over for scrape and scratch touch ups. EZ-Poxy stores well over time, there is a thin O-ring in the can lip. Plain Rustoleum enamel not so much, just decant the remains into a smaller jar. Not sure about Rustoleum Topside, I used every drop doing white scuff-line bottoms on a couple canoes.

Some Rustoleum Topside white bottom scuff lines and keel lines.

ImageP6160005 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The canoe in the foreground is a vintage Royalex Explorer on which the bottom was a mass of scrapes and scratches, including some fugly scrapes where a poler friend jammed it between two rocks so he could take a stand up break. And apparently do a little dance. Same on both sides. Dammit Tom!

ImageP6130015 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Note the faint pencil line for painters tape. I figured out how far down I needed to go to start the “scum” line paint to cover the bottom and side damage, drilled a little hole in a flexible ruler, stuck the pencil in the hole and ran bottom of the ruler along the outwale. Perfect, symmetrical straight tape line.

After a couple (or three) coats of paint the bottom looked almost as good as new.

ImageP6160010 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The Rustoleum Topside has adhered well to Royalex, and I expect the EZ-Poxy would do as well or better.

In colors more contrasting than that white-on-white I think a two-tone canoe looks attractive. Or, as on the Independence, tape off the sides under the gunwales and add a contrasting accent stripe. Once you have started sanding and taping and painting and sanding adding a two-tone or accent stripe isn’t much more work and, if you are like me, you are probably aren’t going back to change it later.

One canoe distinctly changed color before painting. That one was a manufacturer’s attempt at a UL skin-coat boat. They went too light on the resin or skin coat and didn’t fully fill the cloth, so the faintly open weave was a dirt magnet.

ImageP9211228 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

By the time I had scrubbed out as much of the weave dirt as possible there wasn’t much skin coat left, so I opted to re-coat the entire hull with epoxy before painting, and the color changed from white to this kevlar yellow-ish.

ImagePA261302 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

I had already bought the white EZ-Poxy. Had I waited I might have chosen a different paint color. Same “do as I say, not as I do” with the Fire Red paint on the Independence; I found that Fire Red EZ-Poxy on sale and saved a few bucks. I should have opened my wallet a crack more and bought burgundy EZ-Poxy, which would have better matched the underlying hull color.

If you ever need to scrub a really filthy, dirt encrusted hull a friend recommended a DIY “magic mix”; 50% Dawn dish washing detergent, 50% white vinegar. No water, just equal parts Dawn and vinegar. Scrub it on, let it sit, scrub some more, rinse it off. That concoction really is like magic.

All that TMI said, remember to take some before and after photos as you sand down the flakey green and repaint the entire hull fuchsia ;-)

Seriously, please share some photos. Yarnellboat too.

EDIT: Wet hand sanding, not just “hand”. Kinda like using an RO sander foam interface pad I cut a strip of wet sandpaper to wrap around a sponge; the sponge “pad” contours to canoe curves better, and stays wetted out longer.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: March 31st, 2021, 12:51 pm 
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Posts: 13
Haha well I had ordered yellow Interlux topside, but after yesterday's post I had them switch to the sea green! I don't mind the green at all actually, as it matches my favorite football team's colour as well. I don't really like that teal colour, though it does appear to be not as common as the green.

May I ask about your decals? Are those just vinyl that you can stick on? Or is there a special process for those?

I will definitely post updates and pictures as I get through the process. Again, a thousand thank you's for the help!


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: April 1st, 2021, 8:53 am 
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Joined: June 28th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1913
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
ar83 wrote:
I had ordered yellow Interlux topside, but after yesterday's post I had them switch to the sea green!
May I ask about your decals? Are those just vinyl that you can stick on? Or is there a special process for those?


I have never used Interlux Topside but Interlux makes good stuff. Their two-part coatings are very durable, and pricey.

The circular duck thing is a Menacing Duckhead Camping, Canoeing and Carousing club decal. I had several hundred made; they are on all of our boats (past and present), and on another hundred+ friend’s boats and vehicles all across the country. I have driven 9 hours to a put in several States away and parked beside a truck with a Duckhead sticker. Took me a while to figure out who that was.

The crescent moon figure holding a pipe and paddle is my shop “Gogetch”, a Passamaquoddy term for “The Mark of the Builder”. The shop Gogetch is likewise on every boat we own/have owned, and on most boats I have repaired or outfitted.

That shop Gogetch combines elements of several Passamaquoddy canoe builder’s marks; Joe Ellis’ crescent moon and star, Old Peter Polchies’ pipe and Solomon Paul’s stars (pages 84 and 85 of The Bark Canoes and Skin Boats of North America). An artist friend combined them on a sketch and I use that to carbon paper trace an outline and fine paintbrush the design. (Actually I now make the carbon paper trace and ask my steady handed son to do the paint-by-numbers fill in)

ImagePC270001 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

ImagePC290002 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

ImagePB240001 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

ImagePB240003 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

That shop Gogetch is a few on color matching paddles as well.

ImagePB130056 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

When painting a boat I remove all of the manufacturer decals and graphics, and sometimes remove that stuff even if I’m not painting the hull.

ImagePA310032 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

I prefer my own choice of graphics or accent stripes. Same carbon paper trace technique if I rename a canoe after repairs and outfitting.

ImagePB250011 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

ImagePB240005 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

(The canoe was a busted, rotted brightwork Freebie, the EZ-Poxy paint was “Fire Red”)


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: April 3rd, 2021, 7:52 am 
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Posts: 1913
Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
yarnellboat wrote:
Mike, my current project will be repainting a white canoe (by rolling & tipping a marine paint), so we have different tastes in colours, but I appreciate your input anyway! ;)


I am actually not a fan of all white boats either. Kinda stark, and hard to keep looking clean. I will say that amorous manatee seem frisky fond of bumping them.

The white skin-coat kevlar canoe was a gift from a friend in the business, perhaps because it was a one-of-a-kind experimental build that didn’t quite work correctly. The white Royalex Explorer was my best used-buy ever. Years ago an acquaintance was looking for a used do-everything canoe and I saw that one for sale. $200! He went and looked at it and passed, because the cane on one seat was busted!

I was there the next day with $200 in cash. The seller kept hauling gear out of his shed, saying “Do you want this?” and “How about this?” Four paddles, two Voyageurs, two Clements. A hitch receiver T-bar, a very nice portage cart, a small mushroom anchor, a couple decent PFDs. The freebie gear just kept coming. That verified my idea that sometimes dickering over price is counterproductive.

A few more painting tips and thoughts.

When rolling or tipping anything I set out spares of all of the disposables; an extra roller sleeve, extra foam brush, a few rags and a can of acetone in case I oopsie on the shop floor or bench. If a sleeve or brush falls apart, or I drop it on the dirty shop floor, it is much easier to have one ready to grab on the bench. Same with having acetone and rags handy. I’d rather put the spares away when I am done than scurry around hunting up new ones.

A seemingly minor thing that makes rolling paint on a hull much easier; I have a wheeled shop cart and, instead of walking back and forth to the bench every time I need to load the roller as I shuffle alongside the hull 18 inches at a time, I just pull the cart, with paint and roller near at hand, alongside me.

ImagePB050006 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

I can not tell you how handy that little wheeled cart is for various shop tasks. The bottom shelf of that cart holds my dust collection unit; a cyclonic trap hooked up to an old shop vacuum.

ImagePB010055 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Hint for using a cart for a dust extraction trolly – if you screw a multi-plug outlet onto the side of the cart you only need one extension cord to power both the dust extractor and sander. Those cyclonic dust collectors are wonderful for sanding indoors, and will extend the life of your shop vac.

ImagePB010056 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

ImagePB160029 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

That cyclonic extractor snaps on top a bucket. Worth every penny if you sand inside the shop and don’t want to buy a new vacuum every few years. Another thing I didn’t know about until a few years ago, and wish I had.

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Tools-Shop- ... Selection=

If you are painting a hull or doing epoxy work in cool weather a little radiant oil heater, set on 600W low rolled under the inverted canoe is a godsend. The hull captures the heat; it may be 40F in the shop the next morning, but the hull is a toasty 77F

ImagePB050013 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The dry radiant oil heat helps with humidity control too, especially with a concrete floor.

ImagePB050017 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Last painting or epoxy tidbit. I am frugal, and hate to waste materials. There will be paint (or epoxy) left on the roller and brush. Before those go in the trash I roll or brush the leftovers on something I have staged at the ready. I have 5 sets of sawhorses, some either live outside or go on the lawn at times; I use leftover epoxy or paint to prevent the bottom of the legs from rotting. Or on something else; DIY trash can lids (great cans, but the lids UV degrade in a few years).

ImagePB080021 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

I can always find something that needs a little epoxy or paint protection. Even, as a last resort, the top of a stump.

ImageP6160017 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: April 3rd, 2021, 11:39 am 
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Mike I’m going to do this outside in the backyard. What kind of mask should I get? The videos I’ve watched people don’t seem to be wearing one, but I can’t wrap my head around that


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