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PostPosted: February 13th, 2022, 3:42 pm 
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A well known Canadian manufacturer of canoes is trying to liquidate their factory second canoes at a 20% discount. I talked to the salesman at their store and he told me it is mostly paint related cosmetic issues. Specifically, the canoe I was inspecting had a paint "gatoring" issue which is repaired to the point he could not find the problem location. Another canoe had red paint spatter marks over the sand colour of the canoe which was very minor. The factory seconds do not have a warranty and are local pickup only. Is this a good deal? Thoughts?

Thanks in advance,
Richard


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PostPosted: February 13th, 2022, 5:09 pm 
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Yes. Probably.

I’ve owned a couple RX canoes that were bought as factory seconds, stamped “BLEM” below HIN. Those were cosmetic blems, a small wrinkle in the vinyl skin or some slight discolorization.

I also worked in a friend’s factory second Old Town Appalachian. It wasn’t a cosmetic blem, in was much heavier than spec. Like 15 pounds heavier. On the plus side it was some seriously thick Royalex. On the down side it was a beast to carry.

Aside from a careful inspection I’d want to weigh it first.

We had a factory second Mad River RX canoe on which the inner foam core never expanded properly. There had been some problem with the oven at MRC and the floor of the hull had all the rigidity of a rubber raft. Paddling over a shallow rock you could see it indent the floor from bow to stern, and of course it oil canned like crazy. That might be harder to discern on inspection.

Correction: The MRC canoe with the un-expanded foam core wasn’t a factory second. That defect was unknown until we paddled it a few times. MRC admitted the oven issue had unknowingly occurred on a few canoes and made it good.

I forgot a blem OT Camper. We could not find the blemish and used that canoe for 20 years before I traded to a young family guy it straight up for his Mohawk Odyssey 14.


Last edited by Mike McCrea on February 14th, 2022, 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: February 13th, 2022, 8:01 pm 
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Yes, I even bought a demo / sponsor boat the staff had beat on so hard they had to give it another gel coat before they sold it. I was warned it would be a few pounds heavier because of this.

"I just want something I'm not going to feel bad about banging off rocks" Is what I told the factory.

I've had it for years now and I have zero regrets. I even enjoy seeing what new damage has been done at the end of a trip / season.

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PostPosted: February 13th, 2022, 8:27 pm 
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Yes and I have......

Years ago, I wasn't looking for a second but the boat I ordered through a dealer arrived with a quarter size "blemish", I said "what's this", the short form of the answer was "that's a $150 discount" (12.5%).

I did more damage to it on my first trip than the defect that got me the discount.

One would hope that no reputable manufacturer would sell a boat that had serious layup issue or similar major defect.

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PostPosted: February 13th, 2022, 8:44 pm 
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I have bought factory seconds , and prefer them when available and when I can look at them before plonking down money. One of those seconds is 30 years old and the defect is one percent of what I did to it.


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PostPosted: February 14th, 2022, 3:14 pm 
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Petit.Conan wrote:
Yes, I even bought a demo


Our first “new” canoes were demos, bought at the end of a multi-day paddling show and sale. Unintentionally but beneficially bought at close of business on the very last day.

During the show those canoes had been available to demo by prospective customers to test paddle on a nearby pond, and I don’t think the rep wanted to load them and trailer them 1000 miles north, nor return to the factory with used canoes to sell. He had an eager-to-get-away look about him the end of the show; three days in the non-wild urban of New Jersey will do that to you.

IIRC the demo-price was about the same as a blem price, 20% off. We put more scrapes and scratches on those canoes the first trip than they had from a couple days of pond demos.

Group “we”, four canoes were bought that evening. Friends that followed us there also bought two demo boats, and the rep rounded off a few more dollars as a package price for all four. He was so happy to be rid of those canoes he gave us an even better deal on some paddles, PFDs and other lightly used swag. We saved a $200 on each canoe, plus another $50 a paddler on paddles and etc.

$200 x 4 + $50 x 4. We saved $1000 by driving to New Jersey. One of the only times it was ever worth driving the Jersey Turnpike.

There is, like many tales of yore, a denouement to that story. One of the canoes our friends (and thenceforth kid-tripping family companions) bought was an Old Town Pathfinder, an ideal bow backwards, young family canoe. (Zip up that PFD Kathy)

ImageEK_0016 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

That same Pathfinder returned to my shop 25 years later to become the FishFinder.

ImageP3250016 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

https://www.canoetripping.net/threads/p ... ost-121235

$200 x 4 + $50 x 4. We saved $1000 that day by driving up to New Jersey. One of the only times travelling the Jersey Turnpike was worth it.

Gimme blems, demos, used canoes and rehabbed hulks. In the past 40 years I’ve bought exactly one new retail MSRP canoe. I almost had to, I had visited the outfitter oogling that canoe a half dozen times and felt obliged.

Go for it.


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PostPosted: February 14th, 2022, 5:09 pm 
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My Temagami was a demo that might have had a scratch on it. That was great mid-winter service from Swift, even swapping out a kneeling thwart for a middle seat at no extra cost.

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PostPosted: February 14th, 2022, 5:41 pm 
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I bought a Mad River blem. Never could find the Blem. Great canoe, had it for years.


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PostPosted: February 15th, 2022, 2:39 pm 
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Mike McCrea wrote:
Aside from a careful inspection I’d want to weigh it first.


I went back to the manufacturer to look at the factory seconds again. During my humming and ha-ing the previous canoes I looked at were sold. But they had lots of other seconds available (red flag?). I had a beautiful P16 in my sights. There were a couple of paint chips but otherwise perfect. Thinking of what Mike McCrea had said about weight I asked for them to weigh it. They assured me that the weight would be +/- lb off the spec of 56 lbs. I insisted and the weight was 62.5 lbs !! That's more than the expedition version of the boat.

Next ! looked at the same type of canoe but in the colour red. It's defect was a 5" by 7" area on the bottom of the canoe which had a thin layer of gel coat. Looking closely in the right light you could see the black colour of the fabric weave texture (basalt-innegra). It had about 1mm of gel coat where 2-3 mm should be. I was buying this boat for light whitewater so I had to pass. But at least it weighed on spec.

I saw a lot of other canoes on their shop and it seemed they had gel coat issues. I'll think I'll wait.

Cheers


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PostPosted: February 15th, 2022, 3:10 pm 
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Why don't you reveal the manufacturer?

While not a guarantee there are some that I would trust a lot more than others.

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PostPosted: February 15th, 2022, 3:13 pm 
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Don't worry about gel coat. In my understanding it has little to no bearing on strength of the layup. Provides a bit of slide and uv protection but quite a few boats destined for white water are being produced without any gel coat.

As others have said, paint, gel coat etc. will all get scratched on your first trip through whitewater.

Mike McCrea has had great results repainting when cosmetics become an issue.


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PostPosted: February 15th, 2022, 3:55 pm 
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RichardW2 wrote:
Thinking of what Mike McCrea had said about weight I asked for them to weigh it. They assured me that the weight would be +/- lb off the spec of 56 lbs. I insisted and the weight was 62.5 lbs !! That's more than the expedition version of the boat.


I have been told that manufacturers spec’ed weights are the “on-average”. I seriously doubt manufacturers weigh each and every canoe they produce to establish that “average”.

I have owned a couple dozen different canoes over the years, and probably worked on another 50 or 60. Of those I weighed – all of ours and most of the shop work canoes – not a single one was less than the catalog weight. Some were very close, some were a few pounds heavier, and some were considerably heavier.

If I were buying a new boat - factory first, factory second, blem, whatever – I’d bring a bathroom scale and weigh myself with and without the canoe. Even more so if boat weight was one of my criteria; it would suck to buy a canoe for weight savings, get home and find it significantly heavier than spec’ed.

Richard, out of curiosity, what was the manufacturer’s explanation/response to the P16 being 6+ lbs overweight?

(Makes me wonder what the Expedition layup really weighs)

(EDIT: Of course it may have actually been the Expedition version, and only a half pound overweight. Stuff happens; I’ve been a canoe sold with the wrong model name sticker applied)


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PostPosted: February 15th, 2022, 6:07 pm 
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Mike McCrea wrote:
RichardW2 wrote:


Richard, out of curiosity, what was the manufacturer’s explanation/response to the P16 being 6+ lbs overweight?


Mike, the salesperson was very helpful. We weighed every canoe I looked at and she must of spent an hour with me.

When we weighed the P16 she was genuinely baffled it was so far out of spec and said she was going to make note of it. Here are the weights for the canoes we weighed:

P16 regular: spec 56 lbs actual 62.5 lbs
P16 regular (red): spec 56 lbs actual 56.8 lbs
P16 expedition: spec 62 lbs actual 61.8

I think the first one was an anomaly. The salesperson even checked to make sure the first canoe wasn't an expedition grade canoe incorrectly labelled regular. Too bad because I would taken that one if the weight was spec.

Thanks again Mike


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PostPosted: February 16th, 2022, 7:55 am 
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RichardW2 wrote:
When we weighed the P16 she was genuinely baffled it was so far out of spec and said she was going to make note of it. Here are the weights for the canoes we weighed:
P16 regular: spec 56 lbs actual 62.5 lbs
P16 regular (red): spec 56 lbs actual 56.8 lbs
P16 expedition: spec 62 lbs actual 61.8
The salesperson even checked to make sure the first canoe wasn't an expedition grade canoe incorrectly labelled regular.


To be clear all of the canoes I’ve seen/weighed that were significantly overweight, with the exception of one UL kevlar tandem, were Royalex boats. The only explanation I can think of for the weight variance is the thickness of the RX sheets, which were speced by the manufacturer for reinforcement in specific areas.

Old Town was reportedly infamous for accepting RX sheets that did not meet their specifications, and their Royalex canoes were frequently overweight. A friend had a “33lb” Old Town Pack that weighed 45lbs; the most rugged Pack ever made.

On a composite canoe, if the layup schedule was correct, with the right number of fabric partials in the right places, ie the difference between “standard” and “expedition” layups, the only explanation for being 6 lbs over spec weight would be too much resin and/or too much gel coat. Neither of those really adds strength.

The mis-badged canoe was one a friend bought, a Mad River “Legend 15”, the onetime Dagger model:
15’ long ,14.5 deep, with 2 inches of symmetrical rocker

It was badged a Legend 15, but when we got to talking about some outfitting he wanted to do things weren’t adding up. He did some measuring
15’ 3” L, 13 ¾” deep, visually just “slight”rocker

It was a Mad River Intrigue. For a couple of years in the late ‘90’s MRC was producing both models. It was not the “Legendary” downriver canoe he was looking for. Fortunately he had bought it used and was able to recoup his money selling it, with the honest proviso “It is an Intrigue, not a Legend”.

I still wonder if maybe the overweight Prospector might not have been an Expedition model; 6lbs is a lot of excess resin and gel coat.


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PostPosted: February 16th, 2022, 8:59 am 
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My double gel coated NC Prospector 16' in Expedition Tuff Stuff is 68lbs. Personally I am not sure I can tell the difference between 62 and 68lbs but I can certainly tell the difference between it and my 50lb solo boat.

NC was great when I was at the factory as well. We looked at, portaged around and flipped over 5 or 6 canoes while I was there. No pressure from the sales lady and she knew exactly why each of them was in the 2nd's department and was good at explaining if it would have any impact on the canoe other then cosmetics.

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