It is currently December 14th, 2019, 7:35 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: October 3rd, 2006, 5:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: October 26th, 2004, 12:25 pm
Posts: 155
Location: The Netherlands
Next year I intend to join a tandem white water course at MKC in Canada. I'm sure that after the course I'm in need for a new moving water tandem canoe.

Currently I'm building a woodstrip Osprey (solo canoe) and I already own a Kevlar MRC Malecite (tandem).

So I was wondering if there are good tandem moving/white water woodstrip plans available and if any of you use woodstrip canoes for white water up to class 3?

The canoe I'm looking for is a tandem canoe suitable for practicing moving water skills on the river and for wilderness (river) trips in scandinavia for lets say 2-3 week duration.
I know woodstrip isn't the first choise for moving water and it needs some adequate reinforcements, additional glass/kevlar/graphite layers and paddling skills to protect the canoe from serious damage... On the other hand, cedar/canvas canoes have been used for long time on rivers/white water...

Besides the Prospector models, which are suitable for river use? It seems that most available plans are designs mainly intended for flat water.

Any suggestions/experiences?

Michel, The Netherlands


Last edited by Michel vd Hoven on October 3rd, 2006, 9:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 3rd, 2006, 5:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 27th, 2002, 7:00 pm
Posts: 2513
Location: Geraldton, Ontario Can
John Winters and Martin Step have the electronic plans for the Dumoine...I just ordered a set...don't know if that fits your needs....did you get your Osprey plans from martin?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 3rd, 2006, 7:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: December 2nd, 2002, 7:00 pm
Posts: 3731
Location: Grand Haven, Michigan U.S.A.
Michel,

I can't comment on the suitability of any canoe for use in Scandinavian whitewater, as you and Per have been providing me with info on the whitewater there. :lol: By the way, thanks... I might be back with you on that again soon, as I left a few of the websites you directed me to on a prior work computer :tsk:

Anyways, Let me comment on my thoughts about the Dumoine. I think that the Dumoine is a great wilderness tripping boat for mixed whitewater/flatwater. So I'd put it in the category with the Old Town Penobscot, and the Mad River Explorer.) But it like all canoes has it's design intentions and inherent limitations, and those are that the asymmetrical stern rocker that makes it track well hangs up in eddies under more playful paddling (ala... MKC). If your interest is in a nice whitewater tripping tandem for a weeklong wildernes trip, I think a compsite Dumo would be great. But personally, I'd ask John for the plans for his Madawaska. It has a little more rocker, and definitely feels more playful, with a little less tracking than the Dumoine. The Madawaska is more like a Mad River Freedom where your wilderness tripping might be a little more river oriented and involve few if any lakes.

Hope that helps...

PK


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Penobscot?
PostPosted: October 3rd, 2006, 8:31 am 
pknoerr wrote:
[...]
>I think that the Dumoine is a great wilderness tripping boat for
>mixed whitewater/flatwater. So I'd put it in the category with the
>Old Town Penobscot, and the Mad River Explorer.)
[...]

The Old Town Penobscot 16 or 17? Are not what I would compare the
Dumoine to. I would put the Dumoine in the category Old Town
169/Tripper/Appalachian/Scout, Royalex Mad River Explorer/Freedom,
Dagger Legend, Bell Alaskan?

Dirk Barends


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Penobscot?
PostPosted: October 3rd, 2006, 9:59 am 
Offline

Joined: March 17th, 2002, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1772
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Dirk-Barends wrote:
The Old Town Penobscot 16 or 17? Are not what I would compare the
Dumoine to. I would put the Dumoine in the category Old Town
169/Tripper/Appalachian/Scout, Royalex Mad River Explorer/Freedom,
Dagger Legend, Bell Alaskan?


I dunno, I think the Dumoine has more in common with a Penobscot than a Tripper personally. I'd also completely agree with pknoerr's observation about the asymetrical rocker on the Dumoine. I've seen a lot of folks get into trouble because they don't understand how differently the two ends of the boat react to current. I don't have a lot of experience with Scandinavian rivers, but have paddled there a bit. Based on my experience, I think a canoe that's shapped like the OT Tripper would be an excellent choice if it was a bit shorter. A 17 ft boat is a tad long for some of what I paddled there. My choice would be something along the lines of an OT Appalacian.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 3rd, 2006, 11:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 3145
Michel, there are quite a few boats listed here suitable for moving water in cedar strip plans.
http://www.carryingplacecanoeworks.on.c ... _list.html

of course there is always the venerable Prospector Fort


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: October 5th, 2006, 3:57 am 
Rolf Kraiker wrote:
>I dunno, I think the Dumoine has more in common with a Penobscot
>than a Tripper personally.

I think the Dumoine will be more maneuverable and dryer than a
Penobscot 16', and the stability of the Dumoine will be more
pleasant in the rough stuff than the Penobscot 17'.

>I'd also completely agree with pknoerr's observation about the
>asymetrical rocker on the Dumoine. I've seen a lot of folks get into
>trouble because they don't understand how differently the two ends
>of the boat react to current.

Symmetrical boats like the Penobscots do have that kind of
'asymmetrical' rocker too -- when trimmed stern heavy.
So I wonder if those persons you have seen in trouble with
Dumoines had trouble with the rocker or they had the wrong trim
or they just couldn't paddle well (enough)...
I even have had some trouble in a rapid with a (symmetrical) Dagger
Legend when I underestimated the importance of the right trim
in a 'lazy' moment...

>I don't have a lot of experience with Scandinavian rivers, but have
>paddled there a bit. Based on my experience, I think a canoe that's
>shapped like the OT Tripper would be an excellent choice if it was a
>bit shorter. A 17 ft boat is a tad long for some of what I paddled
>there. My choice would be something along the lines of an OT
>Appalacian.

Indeed, an Appalachian would do fine in my opinion & experience too.
Although, if mainly used as a touring boat, my choice would be a
Dumoine (if I had the opportunity to buy or make one) but,
admittedly, that is because I mainly use the 'flatwater version'
of the Dumoine for my canoeing trips nowadays.

Dirk Barends


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 5th, 2006, 5:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: October 26th, 2004, 12:25 pm
Posts: 155
Location: The Netherlands
Thanks for the input.

I never realised that the Dumoine and/or the Yukon are John's designs, and thus should be available as building plans... Green Valley didn't have these plans until recently.... So sounds interesting.

About the Madawaska.... I can't find any specs of this model which is - if I understand correctely - also a John Winter design. Can any of you direct me to some spec's of the Madawaska. It's not build by Swift...

I read some good reviews of the OTC Penobscot and Appalacian... but these designs are not available in building plans are they? Same for Dagger and Bell moving water designs...

Unfortunately only a limited amount of proven design are available as plans... Thankfully John Winters design are availble!

Michel


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 5th, 2006, 7:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: December 2nd, 2002, 7:00 pm
Posts: 3731
Location: Grand Haven, Michigan U.S.A.
Michel,

The Madawaska is a John Winters design, that is dimensionally similar to the Dumoine, but more rockered.

Thankfully, webmasters often remove links for pages but rarely completely remove them and a savy surfer can often connect to them with a guess as to the page name. I found this one for the Madawaska. The picture on the right shows a an image of the boat from the 1999 catalog. Unfortunately the links to the specs and all that go to webpages without the Madawask specs. I have the 1995, 1997, and 1999 catalogs at home I can scan them and email them to you tomorrow.

http://swiftcanoe.com/canoes/catalogue/madawaska.htm

PK


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 7th, 2006, 5:53 am 
Offline

Joined: September 28th, 2004, 6:52 am
Posts: 442
Micheal,

The Madawaska was an extension of the Dumoine intended for river tripping and whitewater. Like a lot of my designs it is focussed in that it tries to do one thing really well at the expense of other things.

I suppose that explains why it did not sell well and was dropped from the Swift line.

Those who have the boat seem to like it a lot and some even think it is exceptional. Others think it is a creation of the devil.

My feeling is that it is a good boat for accomplished river paddlers who like to control the boat from both ends and know how to back paddle.

_________________
Cheers,

John Winters


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 7th, 2006, 8:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: November 23rd, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1981
Location: Coldstream, Ontario Canada
John, I've paddled the Mad and I found to be a very good river tripper which excelled in the moving water.I don't think it was the fact that the Mad did one thing well that removed it from the maket. I believe it had more to do with how Bill makets his boats. With Bills marketing of lake water canoes there isn't much in the way of influence from others, the boats sell on price and the way in which he markets. But with moving water boats thats a bit of a different story...... Most canoeist tend to get instruction before taking off and running the upper Pet. So with that instruction comes influence by others...., ie paddling schools and instructors. For the most part what do you think the instructors may of been suggesting to their students as very good river trippers? Its the Prospectors, StarBurst and Canyons among others, I'm sorry to say its not the Madawaska. I believe the Madawaska was a victim that may of feel prey to politics within the industry more than any thing.

_________________

Al Greve http://www.canoewateradventuring.ca South Western Ontario's canoeing specialist



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 6:05 am 
Offline

Joined: September 28th, 2004, 6:52 am
Posts: 442
Al,

No doubt that promotion plays a huge role in how a boat fares in the marketplace. How a boats sells depends upon both its attributes and the promotion it gets. Not sure which is most important.

I try to keep track of owner comments on my boats so I can improve the next version (if there is to be one). What I got back from Madawaska owners was a strong division between those who liked it and those who did not.

This suggests to me that the design was too specialized - either to a particular paddler type or a particular use. Not sure I would change it much though other than to add another inch or two to the bow height.

I really liked the boat when I paddled the prototype and maybe that was the kiss of death. :D

_________________
Cheers,

John Winters


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 7:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: December 2nd, 2002, 7:00 pm
Posts: 3731
Location: Grand Haven, Michigan U.S.A.
Jwinters wrote:
Al,

I try to keep track of owner comments on my boats so I can improve the next version (if there is to be one). What I got back from Madawaska owners was a strong division between those who liked it and those who did not.


Funny John,

The fact that there is this strong division speaks volumes... those who can take advantage of the hull loved it... those who lacked the skills and were forced to go along for the ride hated it... I find that I generally like hulls that force me to push my limits in paddling... but that's not often the case with others...

I tend to think that the boat ended up hitting a unique target audience... talented river trippers that don't want a hard tracking hull, and are capable of paddling a more maneuverable hull even on flatwater, so that they can take advantage of the more maneuverable hull in challenging whitewater. That's a pretty small market, and then you add in the political phenomena that Al talks about and you end up not selling enough product to make a go of that model.

There are lots of awesome canoe molds sitting out there moth-balled because there isn't enough market to support their continued construction.

PK


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 1:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: November 23rd, 2001, 7:00 pm
Posts: 1981
Location: Coldstream, Ontario Canada
John there isn't one canoe out there that is the perfect boat for its desired area or style of paddling. Maybe the Mad could have been a little deeper, but its a faster boat than the Canyon or Starburst. In the area of moving water I think the more the manufacture can surround itself with elite paddlers the better they'll have a chance of movving their product. Just look at Esquif.... and who Jacques has brought on board. The company is only 10 years old and growing fast! WOW!!!

PK I couldn't agree more, I like a boat that going to push me as well. The more a boat turns the better I like it. But thats just me. :wink:

_________________

Al Greve http://www.canoewateradventuring.ca South Western Ontario's canoeing specialist



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 10th, 2006, 6:51 am 
Offline

Joined: September 28th, 2004, 6:52 am
Posts: 442
Al wrote,

Quote:
ohn there isn't one canoe out there that is the perfect boat for its desired area or style of paddling.


No one knows that better than I which is why I design so many different boats.

Reminds me of the joke about the guitar player who always played just one chord. When asked why he only played one chord and everyone else played lots fo chords he responded that the other guys were seacrhing and he had found it.

I certainly agree with PK's comments. I once developed a canoe buyers guide (I am not sure if Swift still has it on their web site) that asks not only how good a paddler one is now but how good one wants to be. No question that an uninspiring boat will become a bore in a hurry especially if one likes challenge.

_________________
Cheers,

John Winters


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group