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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 8:48 am 
littleredcanoe wrote:
I have always found that we have had to paddle on the windward side in heavy winds/seas. The bow wants to swing upwind anyway.

actually, it is the stern that swings downwind...
Now this my seem an unimportant difference, but if you realize what is really happening, it is also easier to understand the remedy against it?

littleredcanoe wrote:
Be careful if both paddling on the downwind side..the drift of the canoe can well catch both of your paddles under the boat as it slides over your paddles and out you go..

But it is boat dependent..just be aware of what might happen.

So true.

Frankly said, I do not understand why one would like to give up the stability advantage from paddling on different sides for a possible minimal advantage.
I sure would never recommend both paddlers paddling on the same side to anyone, unless they were canoe pros that know what they are doing. But then they wouldn't need my advice...

Dirk Barends


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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 9:14 am 
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littleredcanoe wrote:
Be careful if both paddling on the downwind side..the drift of the canoe can well catch both of your paddles under the boat as it slides over your paddles and out you go.


I've never understood how that happens to people. I've had my paddle blade catch under the canoe at least a hundred times in my life. I just let go of the grip as soon as I realize I can't win the battle. The canoe harmlessly rights itself.

Do some folks really hold on to the grip with a death hold and lever themselves right into the drink?


I agree with awetcanoe's advice. Temporary attachment until you are sure. I suspect you will need at least a 2" tall keel to perceive even a slight improvement. Good luck with that when you run up on a rock. :wink:

Much better to load the boat to the top of its optimal load range (I'd guess 550# or so) and get more hull in the water.

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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 9:29 am 
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Letspaddle,
I don't own either a Prospector or a Kip, but I've paddled both, and here are my thoughts.

First, on most inland lakes, the waves are wind driven. So the waves are traveling the same direction as the wind. So with the Kip having less rocker and a longer waterline, it's more keyed into the water and in the absence of wind driven waves shouldn't slip sideways as much as the Prospector. But as I said, the waves usually are also rolling the same direction as the wind is blowing. So not only are you loosing position because of the wind... but also because of the waves that your straighter tracking, lower boat is more firmly attached to. So when you power up and really push the boat... you are holding position better than when you aren't really pushin the boat. As other's have stated, switching sides (especially in the stern to allow you to use the wind to correct for either a powerful bow paddler pushing the boat away from the side they are paddling on, or a weak bow paddler that is letting the boat drift towards their paddle side, can be done efficiently by the stern paddler.)

But the Prospector has more rocker... and likely the Prospector gets blown off course much easier than the Kip. But it's rocker also makes it easier to get back on course. I often find that the harder tracking boats are less enjoyable to paddle in big winds and waves, because the want to track so hard, and once they get going a direction, it takes lots of correction to get them back where you want to go, and that just slows you down relative to the wind and waves and makes stearing even more difficult.

Paddling on big lakes in strong wind and waves is a skill that can take a few harrowing paddles to get the handle on, and you might find that for how you and your partners paddle, that the slower Prospector that allows you to more easily turn is more enjoyable than the harder tracking Kip that performs better in more flatwater conditions.

PK


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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 11:42 am 
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Dirk-Barends wrote:
Frankly said, I do not understand why one would like to give up the stability advantage from paddling on different sides for a possible minimal advantage.
I sure would never recommend both paddlers paddling on the same side to anyone, unless they were canoe pros that know what they are doing. But then they wouldn't need my advice...

Dirk Barends


With bow and stern paddlers in anything close to a reasonably upright stance, you aren't overbalancing by only paddling on one side. With adults it should be a non-issue. If you're paddling with kids and/or dogs, then having them bounce from side to side is a much bigger issue and is only mildly dependent on which side they were supposed to be paddling on. When crossing the wind having both people paddle on the same side can be a really good thing.

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Last edited by Splake on May 9th, 2008, 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 11:47 am 
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Yep BK I have always let one hand go as its happened to me lots too, but I have seen people catch the blade under the boat and keep a hanging on.

This is not in wind but in lessons..So we go back to the beginning lesson..your paddle is a fine instrument. Dont hold it in a death grip.

Re Dirks comment:We paddled Lake Superior (the northern half ) in a big Wenonah ..there were times where the most efficient paddling was done by both paddlers on the same side. less corrective strokes to slow us down. No we did not have any balance problems..because we leaned into the waves anyway which is the side we were paddling on. Its an old kayaking technique as the water is moving up the wave face.

In canoeing there are sometimes times to break the " rules".


Last edited by littleredcanoe on May 8th, 2008, 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 11:47 am 
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littleredcanoe wrote:
I have always found that we have had to paddle on the windward side in heavy winds/seas. The bow wants to swing upwind anyway.


If the bow is swinging upwind, then that strongly suggests that you are trimmed bow heavy leaving the stern more exposed to the wind and weathervaning downwind. If the canoe is loaded stern heavy then the bow will want to weathervane downwind. In the Path of the Paddle videos Bill Mason presents the technique of trimming bow heavy to help provide control when paddling into the wind.

Note that since the bow in the Kipawa is ( I believe ) higher than the stern, it will be more willing to blow the bow downwind than a Prospector with equal bow and stern heights.

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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 11:53 am 
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Its often a good thing, a safety issue to have the bow heavy to let the stern weathervane. Leevaning (the word censor wont let me use the nautical term!) (the opposite) puts the stern to the wind and hence in a position for a broach.

Its also a function of boat design..in this case the bow was not heavy as our trim lines attested (strips on the outside of the canoe)

Almost all canoes have bows with higher sheerlines than stern. The Prospector is one notable exception which may well explain its different behavior in wind.. Our Odyssey is no exception to the rule and the bow is exceptionally deep and the stern exceptionally shallow like most Wenonahs.. Dont have the measurements but its way deeper thant he Kipawa.

It also has minimal rocker; about an inch bow and stern I think.


Last edited by littleredcanoe on May 8th, 2008, 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 12:01 pm 
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Kip has 3.5 inches of rocker in the bow and an inch in the stern. It is fairly senstive to load placement...it comes standard with a sliding seat, but in the ones I build, I just bolt the seats in and adjust the load. It's a nice little canoe, but a bit tight for my style of tripping.....
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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 1:24 pm 
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pknoerr wrote:
First, on most inland lakes, the waves are wind driven. So the waves are traveling the same direction as the wind. So with the Kip having less rocker and a longer waterline, it's more keyed into the water and in the absence of wind driven waves shouldn't slip sideways as much as the Prospector. But as I said, the waves usually are also rolling the same direction as the wind is blowing. So not only are you loosing position because of the wind... but also because of the waves that your straighter tracking, lower boat is more firmly attached


Sorry, but wind driven waves have to obey the same laws that all waves do. They go up and down. If they moved with the wind, the water that they are made of would have to move as well. Very soon, all of the water in the lake would be on the other side and you can observe that that doesn't happen. It is the wind that provides the sideways push, not the waves themselves.

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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 1:57 pm 
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The water molecules in a surface wave moves in a nearly circular motion that returns to essentially it's original location. As such, there is said to be no net displacement of the water after the waves have passed. But the actual water molecules in the wave actually moved in a circular motion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_surface_wave

PK


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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 2:58 pm 
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pknoerr wrote:
The water molecules in a surface wave moves in a nearly circular motion that returns to essentially it's original location. As such, there is said to be no net displacement of the water after the waves have passed. But the actual water molecules in the wave actually moved in a circular motion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_surface_wave

PK


And so?

The molecules inside the waves may move in a circular motion but they exert no directed force against objects floating in the water. That movement is merely a function of the deformation of the surface. The molecules have to go somewhere when they are displaced and assume the most efficient mode of travel - circular motion.

When people watch a surfer "catch" a wave, it looks like the wave is moving along and the surfer is being pushed by the curling wave. In fact, he is using his position on the wave and the downward pull of gravity to allow him get a free ride. The buoyancy of his craft prevents him from sinking below the surface and gravity keeps the wave from passing beneath him. It's all very mathematical.

If a canoeist can catch and hold his position on the side of a big wind driven wave, he will be moved sideways by it. Otherwise, it has no effect on his progress.

It would have to be a pretty big wave though. 8)

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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 3:44 pm 
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BK, Yes, that's the concept of surfing, and it doesn't take that big a wave or that much speed to experience surfing. Take a loaded canoe out on any lake with wind driven waves, and this is especially interesting when you paddle in no wind with waves generated elsewhere on the body of water this happens alot on water connected to the Great Lakes. The boat surfs some on every wave. When you are quartering to waves you can feel the surf on opposite ends of the boat as seperate pulses. The water moves in waves, and doesn't have a net movement after the wave has passes, but the waves cause the boat itself to have a net motion.

PK.


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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 8:50 pm 
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Battenkiller wrote:
Very soon, all of the water in the lake would be on the other side and you can observe that that doesn't happen. It is the wind that provides the sideways push, not the waves themselves.


To a limited extent this actually does happen. It creates a seiche, which is pretty common on the Great Lakes with extreme examples as much as 10 or more feet. And let's not forget about storm surges.

pknoerr wrote:
interesting when you paddle in no wind with waves generated elsewhere on the body of water this happens alot on water connected to the Great Lakes.

The best days are when the wind waves are traveling with you. Even with one footers, it's like getting a free ride all day long. :)

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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 9:03 pm 
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One of the fun things about ocean waves is the acceleration you get on the downslope and the slowdown on the upslope..

Except when your bow slows, knifes into the wave ahead while your faster stern coming downwave slues to the side.

Common on ocean waves around here...often several feet high with waves generated by storms elsewhere a thousand miles away.


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PostPosted: May 8th, 2008, 10:10 pm 
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Yes, yes... you are right about these phenomena. Water can do weird things in storms and such. Things like tsunami practically defy logic. In general, however, most of the action of things on the surface of waves is up and down. I've watched a $20 Gibbs floating plug break off my line when the bail slapped shut on my ocean spinning rod. It was heavy surf but that damn thing just bobbed up and down in the waves. It took nearly an hour to make it 150' back to shore. Even then, I think it was the wind that brought it in.

Here's a little animation I found that shows what I've always noticed happening in waves. It shows the little circular motion of the water that was mentioned above as well:

http://www.teachersdomain.org/ext/ess05 ... index.html

I'll certainly defer to the observations of you more experienced paddlers here. The only time I've been in waves without wind was motorboat wakes. I live 1/2 mile from a very busy marina. Sometimes I have several dozen big boats come by me in short order while I fish. I've never noticed them budge my position in the least. But if even a slight breeze comes up, count on me having to drop anchor in a hurry.

I'll have to pay more attention to waves when I'm out from now on. I love it when the wind gives me a free ride. If I can do the same thing with waves.... well, what can I say.

BK can be very lazy at times. :wink:

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