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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 12th, 2009, 5:26 pm 
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HOOP_ wrote:
RE throw bag: yes the best option is to wear a secure throw bag belt, so that if you go for a swim, you have a rescue system on you as well. Your life jacket should also have 2prussiks, anchor, and 3 biners (one with a pulley) for the Z-drag. I store the anchor and prussiks on the inside of my Extrasport B27 with the biners outside in the chest pocket and the pully biner clipped to the waist cinch. . With the extra length of the B27, this inside stuff all nests comfortably inside the waist joint in the foam pieces. Thus I can go for a swim and rescue my pinned boat, with my throw bag belt and rescue gear on me, instead of inside the pinned boat.


Yah.... ummm... nope.

Not going swimming with 50' of rope tied to me in a rapid (again) unless its on a quick release.

for painters on a tripping canoe I have one piece of 1/4" polypro rope (the good stuff not the 3 strand braid) about 20' long. This is the most used piece of gear in camp. I also keep a throwbag tied to the grab loop on the other end of the boat.

If it is REALLY big water I might have 2-3 throwbags in series.

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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 12th, 2009, 6:08 pm 
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Good technique, it would seem to me, would be to keep tension on at all times and to avoid excess rope getting into the water at all costs. With extra long lining ropes, that could be a chore in and of itself.


Spot on!

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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 12th, 2009, 7:11 pm 
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Tracking, there is usually tension in the upstream end, with lining, I find that the tension in the upstream end can vary a lot, as I play the canoe in and out of current and around obstructions. The trick is, to balance the tension between the ends, allowing the boat to ferry in/out. A strange bit of a game, sort of akin to working a marionette, though with the added complication of current. Too much tension(or too short a line) will pull the upstream end in to shore.


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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 12th, 2009, 9:52 pm 
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erich wrote:
Tracking, there is usually tension in the upstream end, with lining, I find that the tension in the upstream end can vary a lot, as I play the canoe in and out of current and around obstructions. The trick is, to balance the tension between the ends, allowing the boat to ferry in/out. A strange bit of a game, sort of akin to working a marionette, though with the added complication of current. Too much tension(or too short a line) will pull the upstream end in to shore.

Well said!
I’m gonna have to jump in on this one with some of MHO.
Lining is like a running ballet, jumping from rock to rock, sometimes wading chest deep, getting ahead or falling behind as needed while playing rope out, coiling it back up, pulling the canoe in, pushing it out, reading the current where the boat is and where it will be in the next few seconds or a couple of minutes from now.
I like loonngg ropes. Whether they are called painters, lining ropes or whatever it doesn’t matter to me.
My present ones are 35+ feet and will be replaced for next season with longer ones. They are stored on the decks with the bungee set up as others have explained. They are never tied to the boat, they have a snap spliced into one end and; egads!, a loop spliced in the other! Not a cheap snap either but a real drop forged galvanized rigging snap.
When lining, sometimes the rope is taut, other times it is slack as when pushing the canoe out or when it is drifting into that special little bit of current to take it around a rock.
Why bring extra rope when these will double as a tarp ridge, canoe tie down and have rescued a few boats off a mid stream pin.
Anyways, that’s MHO.

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 12th, 2009, 10:43 pm 
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Rick wrote:
The same needs to said of throw bags. NO KNOTS IN THROW BAG ROPE, for all the same reasons. A knot trapped between rocks on a piece of safety gear will quickly render it useless, with potential life threatening results.
I can't think of single reason to break these rules.


I always have a loop tied in the end of my throwbag. It makes setting up Z-drags and whatnot much easier.
The knot prevents the rope from spilling out of the bag unintentionally.

It also gives me something to hold on to without having to wrap the rope around my hand.

Ever try to tie two lines together under tension? not fun. Especially if one line is midstream and you need to extend the line to setup a drag.

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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 12th, 2009, 11:30 pm 
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Agree with you on the throw bag Dan, when used for the intended purpose the end of the rope remains with the thrower, anything that helps you to not lose the rope is good. A throw rope does no good at all if there is no one holding on to it.

The thing not to do is to attach a 'biner to the end you are throwing at someone which is why you need a 'biner on your pfd to attach the loop in the bag end of the throw rope.

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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 12:43 am 
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Most commercially made throw bags come with two knots sandwiching the bottom of the bag and foam disk. Outside the bottom is a small loop, which shouldn't be big enough to put a hand in. I may be misunderstanding RECPED, but you should never attach the throw rope to your PFD, and the bag gets thrown, not the other end of the line.


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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 1:53 am 
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Quote:
I may be misunderstanding RECPED


Probably......

Attaching the throw bag to PFD....if you are on the receiving end you might want to clip into the line if you need both arms for other things (like keeping your head above water or swimming).

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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 3:44 am 
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RECPED, yes, I had misunderstood. IMHO though, clipping onto the bag end of the rope, is very dangerous, and requires a PFD with a rescue harness. Swim on your back, head upstream, and the rope goes over your shoulder and across your chest. Hold the rope and not the bag, and don't put fingers, hands or anything else through any loop or handle, and don't wrap the rope around anything either.
I admit to being very anal when it comes to safety. I've contributed on SRC courses, and actively participated in rescues, and safety and solid procedures are foremost in my mind when I'm paddling. One thing that hasn't really been discussed here, is assessing the abilities of the paddlers in your group, as well as your abilities, and the opportunities for successful rescue. I do encourage folks to learn, to push their comfort zone. When in doubt, we run the experienced folks down first and set up with multiple throw bags, or even line or portage around an obstacle. The main thing is that they finish the trip safely and having had fun. Out here in the NW, obstacles can be rocks, but are usually copius amounts of large woody debris. Unfortunately there is current debate over the debris that is being placed in rivers to protect fish habitat. While we're all for this, it being done by Fisheries folks and Corps of Engineers, and now we've outside river bends with large created jams anchored to the shore. But that's another safety topic.

We've had some major flooding in the last week, and the paddling we've been doing is quite dicey with all the wood. But I still need my fix, so hopefully they drop enough for a run this week end, For any out this way, the Skagit this time of year has the highest concentrations of Eagles anywhere in the US. Not a hard trip, but a great chance to see over a hundred wintering eagles in a very small area.


Last edited by erich on January 13th, 2009, 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 5:39 am 
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Quote:
clipping onto the bag end of the rope, is very dangerous,


Agreed, I actually can't think of a personal situation where I would do it myself but I could see it if you were in a playboat type pin situation where you were only just able to keep you head above water perhaps by using both arms for support. Another situation might be in a rescue just above a huge drop where the "cost" of losing contact with the rope outweighed any danger presented by being clipped in.

I only mentioned the 'biner on the bag end because I sometimes do this but I once "forgot" it was there and had occasion to actually use the throw bag as intended, the recipient was not pleased with my accuracy when I bonked him on the head with it!

As always there can only be guidelines, there will always be occurrences when doing the "wrong" thing is appropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 15th, 2009, 7:17 am 
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Dan. wrote:
HOOP_ wrote:
RE throw bag: yes the best option is to wear a secure throw bag belt, so that if you go for a swim, you have a rescue system on you as well. Your life jacket should also have 2prussiks, anchor, and 3 biners (one with a pulley) for the Z-drag. I store the anchor and prussiks on the inside of my Extrasport B27 with the biners outside in the chest pocket and the pully biner clipped to the waist cinch. . With the extra length of the B27, this inside stuff all nests comfortably inside the waist joint in the foam pieces. Thus I can go for a swim and rescue my pinned boat, with my throw bag belt and rescue gear on me, instead of inside the pinned boat.


Yah.... ummm... nope.

Not going swimming with 50' of rope tied to me in a rapid (again) unless its on a quick release.


Dan….Not sure where you are coming from? What’s with the “ya...ummm....nope”?

I wear a Northwater Rescue belt, with a cam buckle quick release. Are you saying that this is unsafe? I WW paddle with certified moving water instructors who wear similar throw bag belts - are they behind in their safety gear upgrades?

(This has nothing to do with painters! :-? )

http://www.northwater.com/html/products/river_rescue/Rescue-Belt.html

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 15th, 2009, 10:16 am 
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HOOP_ wrote:
(This has nothing to do with painters! :-? )


Yeah, neither does the whole Poll thread about painters :doh:
but let my digress.

PK


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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 15th, 2009, 11:24 am 
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pknoerr wrote:
HOOP_ wrote:
(This has nothing to do with painters! :-? )


Yeah, neither does the whole Poll thread about painters :doh:
but let my digress.

PK


:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 16th, 2009, 8:45 pm 
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I so enjoy a goo theological debate!

My philosophy is a little different than HOOP's. Since I can't likely rescue a pinned boat by myself, I would prefer to see gear spread out over the group. If everyone has a throw bag, a biner, a prussic and a piece of webbing then we can likely improvise whether the official pin kit is in the trapped boat or not.

A single throw bag is likely too short to work as a Z-drag, anyhow.

The cam buckle shown is not the best (small and no dangly knob on the release), but would appear to be mechanically safe. The clip-type ones have failed to release under tension and drowned people.

For the record, my throw bag is binered to a d-ring in the bottom of my boat.


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 Post subject: Re: Painters
PostPosted: January 19th, 2009, 1:44 pm 
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Quote:
The cam buckle shown is not the best (small and no dangly knob on the release), but would appear to be mechanically safe.


What is the best?

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