Laco....whadda ya think eh?
Green River race....EZ can cover theRiver details better than I can but man.....when you see someone you thnk of as a river guru get trashed....well....this one is not for mortals!
super safety

http://www.zfhproductions.com/movies/Gr ... _2009.html

edit: here's what the whole race looks like from a helmet cam on a training run
http://kayakingross.com/

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http://campfireblues.wetpaint.com/
home of the opinionated old farts!

Never ran it, never got that good. Very steep, technical. It shows the skill and determination of some racers that the best times are posted by fairly long kayaks like the Dagger Green Boat. At about 11.5 feet, it's near the upper limit of what can be horsed through the tighter spots.

The thing that I can't figure out is what up with these yakers and displacement hulls for creek boat. Canoeist figure some three/ four years ago that a planing hull is much better suited for step creeks, they are WAY more stable and turn WAY faster! Sure you want the volume that you see in a Yak creek boat boat but other than that they are still old school. Even as speed goes, just look all the new slalom designs, flat bottoms with lots of edge.
This past weekend in Elora Gorge ( low water ) allowed for me to try a new line on the main falls, with two ramps on the line I was able to get big air on the second ramp. I've only seen a yak run this line once before which looked way doable for open canoe, I'm sure glad I had a flat bottomed boat under me. Even Aliesha ran it in her Planing hull C1.... at 15 she got lots of cheers from all the spectators that had gathered, while she nailed the second ramp with equaled big air. Its way sweet, can't wait to try it with some more H2O, I'm thinking 20 cu/m3 would be very doable.

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Al Greve http://www.canoewateradventuring.ca South Western Ontario's canoeing specialist

When it came time to get Ainslie a new kayak we knew we wanted to decrease the edges, add volume and length (for speed) and give her a bit of a flat bottom for stability. (she loved the feel of the Fun sitting in it, but she never felt comfortable controling edge and when some of the play features would kick in....over she'd go

we chose the hybrid river runner hero line (sidekick)

I think the near edgeless profile helps with cross currents and even predictablity. She trips less than she did in the Fun and has way more confidence. The slighly flat bottom gives her stability; and the volume allows her to ride up a wave and see.....
she actually prefered the feel of the Taureau (sitting in it) than the outrage so we knew that she might have been dissapointed with the punk rocker


as for a slalom boat.... I don't think Alesias is any flatter on the bottom than the sidekick.... could be wrong
I think the rocker is faster than the hero.....might be wrong there too
river racing.....you don't turn like you do in slalom (different dissiplines)...go fast stay up....fly big D fly

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Remember, Gail, it isn't the flat bottom that gives stability, it's the design of the chines and sides.

Alan, the consensus down here is that a creek boat should have a flattish bottom but non-catchy chines. The best creekers are not good planers, though they are flattish. I'm not speaking from personal experience, because I don't own an all-out planing hull. But I own several flattish hulls that plane pretty well on a fast wave.

The whole planing-versus-displacement hull thing can get very misleading. It really comes down to tubularity versus flatness, plus some other factors like rocker and chines.

I couldn't agree more Gail.....Its key to finding a not so aggressive hull design for younger and newer paddlers, its those edges or chines that will cause unease with many novice/ intermediates.

But you don't have to go far into more advanced boat designs, the biggest contributing factor to those designs are hard edges or chines.

Aliesha C1 Vajda 350 Lizard was designed for more intermediate advanced paddlers, but we're already thinking when she gets another season or two under her we'll move her into something way more advanced and edgy. There are three boats that come to mind, the Itomco Absolute ( James Cartwright paddles), Galasport Yin, and the edgiest out of them the Vajda Martikan.

So when I see these very edgy world class state of the art go fast boats and their hard chines that are designed to race in very technical class IV water, it reconfirms in my mind that we want creek boats to turn fast as well. Not to slide into the turns with softer chined or rounded bottom boats. When it comes down to it the only real difference between creeking and slalom racing is one is done in deeper water and the other is playing Pin ball with the shallow rocks. Me...I love Pin Ball!!!

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Al Greve http://www.canoewateradventuring.ca South Western Ontario's canoeing specialist

My girls decided on what they were willing to paddle several years ago. In tandems, Ainslie is fearless, solo she's decided that she want's nothing bigger than a low volume three or a very short high volume 3. She's done lower no-name but takes the left sneak and enjoys the tight rocks.
It's a day out with the family....and we love it
I really wished she had taken us up on the offer 4 years ago to get into slalom...but it's not lighting her up...... everyone has a paddle personality eh?

Speaking of paddle personality....there are times where intermediates should get a more agressive hull....but that includes someone who loves the challenge and doesn't really fear a swim.... and figures our quickly that self rescue is the norm unless there's an actual danger to you.

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home of the opinionated old farts!

Speaking of swim's....Had a beginner in the Blast with me in Elora, one of Aliesha's friends. She seemed to be into it so we started some surfing down below the high bridge. So as things go, each time put more H2O in the boat ( I'm to lazy to paddle to shore and dump a tandem each time ) finally we lost it! Because of where we went over I wasn't able to roll ( up against the rocks )......thus the swim . Needless to say we were wearing drysuits. Aliesha on the other had a good laugh at my expense while she paddled her friend to shore.

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Al Greve http://www.canoewateradventuring.ca South Western Ontario's canoeing specialist

You and my hubby are going to have to give me another tutorial on "what goes on the river, stays on the river"

You are confusing me all to heck

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http://campfireblues.wetpaint.com/
home of the opinionated old farts!

What????? Everyone swims.....well at least the ones that go in a canoe with me!

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Al Greve http://www.canoewateradventuring.ca South Western Ontario's canoeing specialist

I thought I would ressurect this little goodie for those of you that dont visit the rest of CCR..Its in the Articles section and is entitled Alternative River Grading.

Alternative River Grading

by Author unknown -

(This one has been floating around the Internet for a while ... I don't have a source to credit it to.)

Someone was asking me about my class IV comfort level the other day, and my answer was something like "I'm comfortable that I can usually find an eddy to swim to". This inspired me to write, 'Dave's International Scale of River Difficulty':

Class I: Easy.
Fast moving water with riffles and small waves. Swimming is pleasant, shore easily reached. Almost all gear and equipment is recovered. Boat is just slightly scratched.

Class II: Novice.
Straightforward rapids with wide, clear channels which are evident without scouting. Swimming to eddies may require moderate effort. Climbing out of river may involve slippery rocks and shrub-induced lacerations. Paddles travel a great distance downstream requiring a lengthy walk. Canoe hits a submerged rock leaving a ding on gunwale.

Class III:
Intermediate. Rapids with moderate, irregular waves which may be difficult to avoid. Water is swallowed. Legs are repeatedly ground against sharp pointy rocks. Several eddies are missed while swimming. Difficult decision whether or not to stay with boat is made. Decision to stay with boat results in moment of terror when swimmer realizes they are downstream of boat. Paddle is recirculated gently in small hole way upstream. All personal possessions are removed from boat and floated in different directions. Paddling partners run along river bank shouting helpful instructions. Boat is munched against large boulder hard enough to leave series of deep gouges. Sunglasses fall off.

Class IV:
Advanced. Intense, powerful but predictable rapids requiring precise swimming in turbulent water. Swimming may require 'must' moves above dangerous hazards. 'Must' moves are downgraded to 'strongly recommended' after they are missed. Sensation of disbelief is experienced while about to swim large drops. Frantic swimming towards shore is alternated with frantic swimming away from shore to avoid strainers. Rocks are clung to with death grip. Paddle is completely forgotten. One shoe is removed. Hydraulic pressure removes car keys and credit cards from zippered paddle jacket pocket. Paddle partners running along stream look genuinely concerned while lofting throw ropes 20 feet behind swimmer. Paddle partners stare slack-jawed and point in amazement at canoe which is finally stopped by major feature. Climbing up river bank involves an inverted tree. One of those little spring-loaded pins that attaches watch to watchband is missing. Contact lenses are moved to rear of eyeballs.

Class V and beyond:
Expert. Not recommended for swimming.



Perhps Alan or Gail can embellish

I think I was corrected on that topic once already in the last 3 months? I'll leave it up to new interpretation

anywho....my favorite "alternative" description of the class system involves "soiling oneself"

paddling with Al sometimes feels like this:

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http://campfireblues.wetpaint.com/
home of the opinionated old farts!

Thats too funny!!!! But seriously I don't go that fast, ( Liz may say something a little different? )( Adult Humor ) and besides there's not rocks to turn around ( I guess that's why I love being Canadian, I get to play on some of the Worlds oldest rock ( the Canadian Shield ) going Mock 10 down a 45' slide. That Lamborghini test driver doesn't know what he's missing...... He should come do Fowlerville Falls with us! That said.....I guess that's why I wear sun glasses when canoeing creeks, its so no one can see how big my eyes get.

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Al Greve http://www.canoewateradventuring.ca South Western Ontario's canoeing specialist

Kim......This is not the case with all canoeist..... A number of paddlers I paddle with tend to laugh and give a play by play of the swim.....Like.... " thats got to hurt" " Ouch" " did you see his butt hit that rock"

Throw ropes....what are they???.....they don't come out until it ups to class IV+/ V

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Al Greve http://www.canoewateradventuring.ca South Western Ontario's canoeing specialist

I like my displacement hull cus I like my vertebrae! That displacement hull displaces some water (and energy) if I land something a bit too flattish, while the planing hull does a belly-flop. My first time in a planing hull boat I landed a seal launch of only 10-15 ft flat and I was having trouble walking for the next week.

I consider a displacement hull to be more stable when creeking as well. As it is less likely to have any hard chines to catch on rocks. It also has less flat surface to get pinned on rocks with. But mostly I like it for the sake of them vertebrae, as we are not in as good of a shock absorbing position in yaks as you folks are.