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PostPosted: June 14th, 2011, 7:57 pm 
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I thought I would post this in an effort to show others that you don’t necessarily need two different types of solo boats to enjoy white water playing and tripping.
This is a Bell Yellowstone in ABS and is 14.5’ long. Most solo tripping boats are not that deep which means in wave or ww you can take on a lot of water.
In this simple CII on the Gull River at Moore falls without the cover I took in a fair amount of water. The largest wave here (which is not seen here) is just a little taller than the boat
Moore falls rapid
Image

Image

Now the same boat with the boat cover, covering most of the boat (with airbags in the ends this time :thumbup: )
Covered boat

Image

This time playing at the Minden Wild Water Preserve from the falls down to the lake a nice CIII. Even with ferrying at the bottom of the Otter slide.
With this setup I took in less water than the 2 specialized ww double open boats.
A lot is still going to depend on your skill to read the ww, but I was amazed how much water was kept out. I ran with the full spray cover on a early spring trip down 16 mile creek in early March (CII & III) and did not have to empty the boat the entire trip.
Otter slide Minden (Gull is running 8.0 on the guage)

Image

So there is an option for those of us that are looking for a boat that can cover more than one type of paddling activity.
Jeff
PS the paddler is meant to be fuzzy.. 8)
I was just playing with long exposures and thought it might look neat with a ghost paddler.... :wink:

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Choosing to save a river is more often an act of passion than of careful calculation. You make the choice because the river has touched your life in an intimate and irreversible way, because you are unwilling to accept its loss. — (David Bolling, Ho


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2011, 10:42 am 
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Kind of depends on what you mean by "play," doesn't it? I wouldn't describe running class 2-3 as play, unless a good deal of surfing is involved, and for that I would like to unload the boat.

A full cover came with my $400 used Mad River Guide Solo, but I've never tried it. The Guide is somewhat playful, however I usually "trip" on rivers, and I can cruise at a decent pace in my Mad River Synergy. If we're talking about class 3, the extra control I have in the ww boat will make up for the dryness obtainable in the Guide with cover.

But if lakes or windswept rivers are in the offing, the Guide with cover would be better.


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2011, 11:26 am 
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It may not be a play boat as such as those tiny little ones but one can still play the river and I should have pointed that out.
For me the yellowstone's hull is very similar to the boats I raced in the early 70's.
And I have no problem catching and sticking the small eddies of the Minden Wild Water preserve below the falls. That said I would not run from the dam down to the falls in a yellowstone but have paddled the upper stretch in other open boats in much higher water.
And I agree for a newbee it would be a tough boat.
I just thought it would be good for those searching and can only get one boat to see some options.
For me since I am no longer able to sit in a kayak, it gave me some options to keep river running and stay semi dry :roll:
It is nice to see some other options and threads like this can help newcomers become involved in our passion.
And one thing from the years I coached and taught is that every person needs to create a bag of skills that fits their abilities and limitations. What works for one may not work for another (type of equipment, physical capabilities and so on)
So some tweaking of techniques needs to take place.
Jeff

and I do miss paddling the decked boats :cry:

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Choosing to save a river is more often an act of passion than of careful calculation. You make the choice because the river has touched your life in an intimate and irreversible way, because you are unwilling to accept its loss. — (David Bolling, Ho


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2011, 1:57 pm 
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As EZ says, it all depends what you mean by "play." I had a student bring a Sunburst to a solo course last week and we discovered that doing 2X4, paddle-from-the-bow/no-stern-correction was very difficult in a boat that is by today's standards, long and heavy. It's an excellent tripping and downriver boat, but "play" it's not. I would discourage a student from bringing a similar boat to a course where the emphasis is going to be on 2X4.


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2011, 2:17 pm 
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What is 2x4?

Is it four pure forwards on one side and four cross forwards on the other side? Or hit and switch?


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2011, 4:21 pm 
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ok 70'S play definition.
Sticking eddies (high in the pocket), simple surfs ferries.
small hole.
Being "old school" what is a 2 x 4?
found this
http://westwoodoutdoors.ca/2010/02/24/c ... -westwood/

And I would agree that sunburst would be a tough boat in this instance, especially if the paddler was short or used a shorter paddle.
It is a wide boat but handles ww great (one of the 3 I looked at, the other was a raven)
But different types of boats require tweaking of techniques.
the same with body size .
The idea here was too show that there are a variety of options available.
If those looking to become involved see that they are more likely to try out our activity.
Jeff
Edit as an example just take a look at the different videos available on line about instruction.

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Choosing to save a river is more often an act of passion than of careful calculation. You make the choice because the river has touched your life in an intimate and irreversible way, because you are unwilling to accept its loss. — (David Bolling, Ho


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2011, 4:47 pm 
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Westwood is the go-to guy for 2 x 4. It relies on minimizing stern corrections which kill momentum and instead concentrates on on-side and off-side bow strokes (the "2") at varying length, cadence, angle and tilt (the "4") to control direction.

This is pretty much the dominant method for teaching solo playboating. I find that when students learn the off-side strokes early and are taught to paddle on the side they are carving towards, flips crossing eddy lines are much, much reduced. Ferries also become much easier early in the game. It exploits boat dynamics and increases stability.

However, big boats still need those stern moves because it takes so much more effort to turn them from the bow.


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2011, 4:54 pm 
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:rofl: 2x4 was not developed by Andrew Westwood! Tom Foster is generally given the credit but even it is unclear whether he was the developer.

Anyway the Inside Circle is a foundation of our FreeStyle curriculum to learn how the bow wash influences our boats and also how to get the most efficient pure forward and cross forward stroke and tweak them for turning or not.

Mostly we have the best results from somewhat rockered dedicated solo canoes where you can actually do a cross stroke.

we had a spirited discussion last year here

http://www.paddling.net/message/showThr ... id=1300284


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2011, 8:21 pm 
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Never said he developed it -- nor does he claim to have. Just he's the most active proponent at the moment. On the moving water side, the story is that there is no one developer but a codification of what high level paddlers were already doing -- especially slalom paddlers.


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2011, 9:00 pm 
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We need as many propenents as possible Charlie Wilson is a very active proponent and because of him and his instruction the inside circle has become a fixture. It has proven to be a flatwater exercise that translates well into making one a better river paddler as well as a quietwater paddler.

I think Charlie is out paddling however, otherwise he would chime in. Probably the last break he gets before being barraged by paddlers at AFS in July.


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2011, 10:48 pm 
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Viper 11. Avoid lakes.


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2011, 11:15 pm 
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Tenzing wrote:
Viper 11. Avoid lakes.



Why? I realize it wants to skid out early but perhaps a balance of forwards and then switching hands and doing pure forwards on the other side would work. You would have to have a very pure stroke free of blemishes and the boat would be slow..but you could persevere.

Now as where to put the dog..I have no idea :rofl:


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PostPosted: June 15th, 2011, 11:46 pm 
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Jedi Jeffi said, "For me the yellowstone's hull is very similar to the boats I raced in the early 70's."

What sort of racing was that? Early slalom? Soon after I moved to Atlanta, the OC Nationals were held on the Nantahala. Probably about '75. I hadn't bought my Hahn yet, so for even an unofficial try at the slalom course, during lunch break, I had only my 13' Mad River Compatriot. I knew already that its whitewater capabilities were very limited, but I was encouraged by the knowledge that Jim Henry had placed 3rd in slalom in his Compatriot, in a previous Nationals.

The slalom course was opposite Ferrabee, above and through the Delebars Rock section. (At that time, running slalom through Lesser Wesser was considered too difficult for open canoes.) I lined up and had at it, but well before reaching Delabars my boat was half full of water. The Compatriot simply would not make the moves. If I had waited and bought a Courier, or had a MR Guide, I might have had a chance.

I know that non-slalom canoes can be very effective in the hands of competent people, because when the Nationals returned to the Nantahala, and the slalom was held just below Lesser Wesser, a lot of specialized composite boats showed up for the ~15 foot medium class and the ~13 foot short class. But a friend of mine entered the medium class and placed 3rd in a Blue Hole OCA. Several serious medium class racers were humiliated. Later, the same paddler (Jim Hudson) won the only Ocoee downriver open canoe race, again paddling an OCA.


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PostPosted: June 16th, 2011, 4:31 am 
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I was comparing them to the decked boats we had available.
And for us that would be 1969 type designs.
The Hahn when it first came out was a big switch to a faster turning boat.
The courses back then where 800m long so the quick turns where not needed.
The serious racers jumped to the hahn so the older style boats where quite easy to come by.
the Equipment has evolved a long way.
Jeff

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Choosing to save a river is more often an act of passion than of careful calculation. You make the choice because the river has touched your life in an intimate and irreversible way, because you are unwilling to accept its loss. — (David Bolling, Ho


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PostPosted: June 16th, 2011, 6:58 am 
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littleredcanoe wrote:
Tenzing wrote:
Viper 11. Avoid lakes.



Why? I realize it wants to skid out early but perhaps a balance of forwards and then switching hands and doing pure forwards on the other side would work. You would have to have a very pure stroke free of blemishes and the boat would be slow..but you could persevere.

Now as where to put the dog..I have no idea :rofl:


It's a great boat in current but in flat water, like any other banana boat, it doesn't track as well as a tripping boat. It tracks better than most whitewater boats, but it will stall out if you lose the edge. It also requires a lot of effort to keep it at speed on flat water, and if there's wind it can really put a damper on your progress.

Not saying it's a bad boat, I like mine a lot, and if you want to run Class IV+ whilst tripping, it's the way I'd do it.


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