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 Post subject: Advice on tripping boat
PostPosted: January 19th, 2018, 1:13 am 
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Hey Peeps,

Its been a while since I've posted, but I've been sneaking around.. reading.

Id like to buy a new canoe this year, and I've been thinking about Keewaydin, as opposed to the prospectors I've owned in the past.

So here goes:

1- I'm leaning towards the Keewaydin design since I'm mostly on flat water (LaVerendrye), some class 1-2, rare 3. Is the asymmetrical shape an issue in rapids?
2- Whats the lightest material I can go if I intend on minimizing portages (I like to do as many rapids as I can)?
3- Do i really need skip plates on a expedition kevlar?
4- Will carbon innegra handle rapids?

Thanks!

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PostPosted: January 19th, 2018, 7:05 am 
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1- I'm leaning towards the Keewaydin design since I'm mostly on flat water (LaVerendrye), some class 1-2, rare 3. Is the asymmetrical shape an issue in rapids?
2- Whats the lightest material I can go if I intend on minimizing portages (I like to do as many rapids as I can)?
3- Do i really need skip plates on a expedition kevlar?
4- Will carbon innegra handle rapids?

Thanks!

1. I have used my Keewaydin 16 in class 1-2 rapids without incident. Not the best design for rapids but it is respectable.
2.Carbon Fiber
3.No
4.Yes but I have the expedition Kevlar and the accurate weight is 43lbs. The boat is very easy to handle, well balanced. We are lucky to have such a fine boat making company in Canada.

This boat is well made, very fast and carries a load well. It is also an excellent Solo boat. It is also extremely nice to look at.

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PostPosted: January 19th, 2018, 9:38 am 
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The asym shape is only an issue if you have to solo it and find yourself not able to sit on the bow seat facing the stern ( the new bow). You couldn't anyway with the thwart right behind the bow seat

I would not consider Innegra for rapids .. It is stiff and cannot absorb and rebound from impact.
Class 3 is an upper limit for any canoe..even Royalex

For your minimizing portages use I would not go with carbon fiber..Expedition Kevlar has worked for me and the Dumoine ( which is a river boat) comes in only that layup


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PostPosted: January 19th, 2018, 7:56 pm 
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So you both mention expedition Kevlar and definitely not carbon . What about the in between, Kevlar fusion?
Also, are there any other lines (canoes) I should be looking at?

Gabe

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PostPosted: January 19th, 2018, 10:57 pm 
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gcc_mtl wrote:
3- Do i really need skip plates on a expedition kevlar?


This one depends on your paddling style and your abilty / willingness to maintain your boat.

If you're rough on your boat like me then skid plates are a must. I punched a hole through the outer layer of my T-Formex (Royalex) boat on its first trip. I covered it with a skid plate afterwards.

Best case scenario is that you take care on landings and rapids during low water conditions. Once you start to get wear you refinish before the cloth sees damage.

I don't see the advantage on going lighter than a good Kevlar/glass layup. Very durable and light enough. The lighter the boat the harder I find it is to carry in the wind anyway.


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PostPosted: January 26th, 2018, 9:24 pm 
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Location: Omemee
Innegra/basalt layups ( Tuffstuff ) were designed to replace Royalex and are almost half the weight in expedition weights.
My 17ft is 52lbs.
Happy Paddling.


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PostPosted: January 28th, 2018, 9:40 am 
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Donomemee wrote:
Innegra/basalt layups ( Tuffstuff ) were designed to replace Royalex and are almost half the weight in expedition weights.
My 17ft is 52lbs.
Happy Paddling.

No.. These layups came out before RX disappeared. Tuff Stuff ( not to be confused with other similar sounding names from other manufacturers) is stiff and OK for mild whitewater.

But the RX replacement ( and we will see how well it works after a few years) is T formex.

http://www.novacraft.com/buyers-guide/m ... explained/

You'll note the qualifications Nova Craft uses.


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PostPosted: January 29th, 2018, 3:04 pm 
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We picked up a Keewaydin 17 last year in Kevlar Fusion and simply fell in love with the boat. Paddles like a dream, the slight tumblehome makes paddling positions easier to reach the water, and handles rough seas really well - we paddled into a headwind on one of our trips last year and had some pretty big chop, the boat barely bobbed in the waves, such a stable canoe.

Expedition Kevlar might be something you want to look at, we went with the Fusion since we don't really paddle whitewater all that much, so lighter weight was a bigger deal to us (our boat is 39 pounds for a 17 footer).

Skid plates? Is personal preference really...most think it is heresy to add them, that it'll slow you down etc - but it's your boat, and is a nice bit of peace of mind. Our first canoe we installed them as brand new and the rough finish was worn smooth after the first few seasons..and this was with us being fairly careful with the paddling with it.

I'd honestly give Swift a call and talk to one of their sales people, mention what you're looking to do and they'll give you some great advice. When we were talking to a guy about layups for canoes etc, once he found out about where we were looking to paddle was able to narrow down our options, and actually recommended against Carbon Fibre, saying the Kevlar Fusion was the perfect layup for us. Then proceeded to bring out a boat in the exact colour, layup and boat fitting that we wanted. We WERE just looking at the time, but ended up buying a canoe haha....

We're probably picking a second one up this year to expand our fleet even further, and so this way there's no fighting over who gets to ride in the Keewaydin when we're on canoe trips with the family haha

Tim


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PostPosted: January 29th, 2018, 3:59 pm 
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My impression of the Innegra/basalt layup after having owned a whitewater solo boat in that material for a couple of years is that it is extremely durable and suitable for any class of whitewater. I don't use my boat for creeking, but I wouldn't use a Royalex boat for that either. The Innegra will scuff on rocks and likely need a bit of refinishing after a few years. I have put one sizable dent in the stern after boofing a 3' ledge onto a rockhttp://www.myccr.com/phpbbforum/pos ... 9&t=46479#, but it popped right back into shape with a heat gun.

The problem I have with composite boats is their cost. Well over $3000 for a tandem boat. However, the light weight does make one think . . .

T-Formex is the "new Royalex" and seems to be priced about the same as Royalex predecessor boats, but there also seems to be a production problem. I have a friend who ordered a T-Formex boat in March and was lucky to get it in September. Other people went away with nothing.


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PostPosted: January 30th, 2018, 9:04 am 
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Right now I'm pretty sold on an asymmetrical keewaydin 17. I'm having a hard time choosing the layup. I'd love to go as light as possible, but still do rapids. I also have a tendency to drag my canoe over beaver dams, logs, anything really...

If innerva/ basalt is so amazing, why is a carbon boat still reguarded as super fragile? Can it do class 1? 2?

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PostPosted: January 30th, 2018, 11:26 am 
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Location: Omemee
Little Red canoe is right T-Formex is the exact equivalent replacement of Royalex but during the 2-3 year interim after Royalex production stopped Innegra/Basalt was the closest layu-up produced to replace it.
I have an H2O canoe in Innegra/Basalt/Kevlar/Epoxy layup, 17ft at 52lbs w/3rd seat.
The comparable T-formex canoe is 76lbs.
Unfortunately that 24lbs cost about $1000 more.
I carry a small 5min marine epoxy patch kit on big trips just in case.
From what you're saying about running some whitewater and less weight I'd agree with others that expedition Kevlar and/or Inegra layups are your answer.
Check out The Toronto Outdoor or Boat Show if you are close.
Most canoe makers will be there.
Happy Paddling.


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PostPosted: January 30th, 2018, 4:37 pm 
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gcc_mtl, I think you may be asking the wrong question. Composite boats are ok in any class of whitewater -- until they hit something or wrap. Some layups might puncture or even break in half if the boat wraps. I think Tuffstuff as demonstrated it will survive a wrap well enough to be paddled out. My Echoee (innegra) has taken a lot of hits with no real damage. Royalex could definitely stand a lot of abuse.

The class of whitewater a boat can manoeuvre in is more a function of its design than materials. Generally, a boat with 2" or less rocker will fill quickly in Class 2+ and will not be able to turn quick enough to manoeuvre well. Whitewater tandems generally have about 4" of rocker. There are other design elements that affect how wet a boat is, but the big one is rocker.


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PostPosted: January 30th, 2018, 10:34 pm 
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Peter K. wrote:
gcc_mtl, I think you may be asking the wrong question. Composite boats are ok in any class of whitewater -- until they hit something or wrap. Some layups might puncture or even break in half if the boat wraps. I think Tuffstuff as demonstrated it will survive a wrap well enough to be paddled out. My Echoee (innegra) has taken a lot of hits with no real damage. Royalex could definitely stand a lot of abuse.

The class of whitewater a boat can manoeuvre in is more a function of its design than materials. Generally, a boat with 2" or less rocker will fill quickly in Class 2+ and will not be able to turn quick enough to manoeuvre well. Whitewater tandems generally have about 4" of rocker. There are other design elements that affect how wet a boat is, but the big one is rocker.



Thank Peter K.
The rapids in LaVerendrye are really short. Im not worried about water filling in. The main concern isn't wrapping either. Indeed, I havent expressed myself properly. Since my rapids are easy, rocker is more about being able to pivot than water concerns, so far 2" has handled well. I already have a Nova Craft royalex prospector for the trips your referring to.
I want:
- light portages
- enough resistance to handle a bump


If costs is not a concern, what is the lightest layup that can take a lateral hit as I pass by a rock, or a direct bow hit in case of a mistake?

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PostPosted: January 31st, 2018, 8:36 am 
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Based on my own experience with a solo boat that is not been babied, I would think that any boat with the outer layer made of Innegra would handle most hits. I put a fist sized dent in my boat dropping over a 3' ledge onto a rock and it just popped back in when heated that evening at home. Another light material which has been used for whitewater boats in Twintex and other proprietary names for a weave of polypropylene and fiberglass. It is pretty robust -- about the same as Innegra in my experience, but due tot he poly cannot be glued except at a very high cost and boats often get sent back to the factory to be repaired. It's a PITA. I'll never own another Twintex boat.


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PostPosted: January 31st, 2018, 8:04 pm 
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I recommend that you call Swift and talk about your options. I have two carbon/Kevlar Bells that you can beat on all day long...bumping around in class one or two with some bumpy drops. Hit a hidden stump in one at full cruise speed at came to dead stop. No problem. I'm not sure why the Swift description makes their carbon lay-up sound delicate. It even has a gelcoat...plus carbon, Kevlar, and a core. Hmmm.

I've got two Swift solos in Kevlar fusion. I am not shy about where I take them or how I use them. You can bump around in them. I have never banged or bashed around with them in any big water. I like the lay-up. I used to have an older lightweight Kevlar Swift that was not strong enough for my taste. Also had an expedition Kevlar Osprey and loved how strong it felt.

I'd like to try a Kee17. I suggest you target the expedition Kevlar for total peace of mind and make sure you get the carbon trim, and I think their optional carbon tech package will take even more weight out of it.


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