remarkable post - If Alan Jacobs channel Moffatt, then I can channel J. S. Mill: "But the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error."

Can someone point me to a link or some other source that outlines the events of the survivors after the day of disaster? I need closure! Confession: I only skimmed the previous 20 pages so, if it is buried within this thread, I missed it. BTW, excellent read. Missed sleep because of it

The first post of this thread has links to the journal of one of the participants but I can't remember how long it continues after the death of Art.

There are also two books detailing the trip:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003O2SQL6/re ... TF8&btkr=1

https://www.amazon.com/Barren-Grounds-S ... TEGPDACSMJ

Might as well read them both. Neither one is not a replacement for the other.

Alan

Alan, thanks so much Both available on Kindle for less than $8

As a balance consider: https://www.amazon.com/Reindeer-Lake-Es ... 1896219845

or https://www.amazon.com/Sleeping-Island- ... oks&sr=1-1

I read Sleeping I. but don't recall seeing anything re "Moffat's' river.

_________________

Old canoeists never die---they just smell that way.

Canoeing styles/philosophies/approaches and interactions between individuals. The contrasting approaches of Amundsen and Scott in Antarctica come to mind.


Pg 129 of Pessl's book

"From here until 9/17 our daily chronologic journal entries ended.
The days after 9/8 were filled with such horror and suffering that it
was impossible to write anything at all. In one moment, this grand
adventure had become a nightmare beyond my comprehension...."

The worst that happened to Amundsen was a case of hemorrhoids why Scott and company died eleven miles short of a food cache. One was prepared and one was not - regardless of the expenditures of energies.

Amundsen's group took lots of dogs and fed everybody seal. When a dog got played out, it was killed and fed to the other dogs. Brutal but efficient. Scott took dogs(?) and Siberian ponies and after they got played out went to "man hauling". All died. What is interesting was Amundsen had a much shorter distance to run than Scott and a more efficient means of doing it. Scott knew of dogs efficiency but opted to ponies, the consequences were devastating. Choices imply consequences. Think Moffatt's choices and then the consequences. He put himself in harms way and paid the price. It could have been much worst. It is my opinion that Scott's group death was in response to being second too the pole. You can see the despondency in the photo taken at the pole with the Norwegian flag in the background. By contrast Moffatt's group rallied behind Pessl and although I would argue the wisdom of that 8 mile carry, they managed to make safe haven. I can still see G.G.'s big grin as he munched on glass impregnated peanut butter. Against all odds it passed the alimentary test! Talk of an "Iron Constitution"!!

Response to Realstone regarding sources.
Alan referred you to the 1996 edition of Grinnell’s book and to Pessl’s book of 2014.
Most of the following participant material is less available but figured in my study.

The publications of the participants.
1. The four articles (1955) of LeFavour understandably went unnoticed. Thanks to him, I was able to post here the third, that which describes the events of 14 September, when Moffatt died.
2. The Sports Illustrated article (1959) contains
(a) edited excerpts from Moffatt’s journal,
(b) a faithful condensation of the journal of his bowperson Lanouette for the day of the tragedy, plus
(c) contributions from participant Grinnell (as provided in an Appendix).
3. In 1988, Grinnell published an article in Canoe (now Canoe and Kayak).
4. The first edition of Grinnell’s book appeared in 1996; the later editions (those of 2006 and 2010) went unmentioned in the Moffatt literature.
5. (a) Kesselheim’s article of 2012 (which contains comments of participant Pessl),
(b) Pessl’s Nastawgan article of 2013, and
(c) Pessl’s book of 2014 (which contains excerpts from both his journal and that of participant Franck, plus his comments),
all appeared too late to influence the Moffatt literature until I published (at CCR) excerpts from all three.
For sticklers, I note that Kingsley (2014) mentioned Pessl’s comment People revealed themselves as imperfect in Kesselheim’s article.
6. Thanks to Lanouette and his daughter Elizabeth Emge, I posted here his full journal for the trip.

My correspondence with the participants was extensive with Pessl (over more than four years), much less with LeFavour, only incidentally with Grinnell. Franck died in 2013.

_________________

A literal mind is a little mind. If it's not worth doing to excess, it's not worth doing at all. Good enough isn't.  None are so blind as those who choose not to see. (AJ)

Alan Jacobs endless listings cannot bury the facts exist in Pessl's book contest with Alan Jacobs' recollection.

(Jacobs' Post) Skip and I walked all the way down and took a careful look at the rapid. Art thought...we couldn't shoot the whole thing... Skip and I still thought we could shoot the whole thing...
Art thinks that the river may be lower now than when Tyrrell went through as Tyrrell didn’t have much trouble with any of these rapids. [Pessl book, p 91]

Alan Jacobs: "I saw no evidence in the reports of the participants that the water level in the neighborhood of Marjorie Lake was significantly different from that encountered by the Tyrrell party."

1. A minor point. The passage quoted by Demello did not refer to the reach above Marjorie Lake, the reach where Moffatt died. It referred rather to a reach far upstream (upstream from Markham Lake I recall).
EDIT. And so there is little reason to believe that the levels were comparable at locations so distant.

2. The key passage quoted by Demello is Art thinks that the river may be lower now than when Tyrrell went through as Tyrrell didn’t have much trouble with any of these rapids [Pessl book, p 91]
Please note the word lower.
EDIT. It is unclear to me what Pessl meant by trouble.
My experience is that lower water generally means less danger, not more danger (as Demello appears to suggest), I'd be interested to learn the corresponding experience of CCRers in general.

_________________

A literal mind is a little mind. If it's not worth doing to excess, it's not worth doing at all. Good enough isn't.  None are so blind as those who choose not to see. (AJ)

Alan Jacobs: "1. A minor point. The passage quoted by Demello did not refer to the reach above Marjorie Lake, the reach where Moffatt died. It referred rather to a reach far upstream (upstream from Markham Lake I recall).
EDIT. And so there is little reason to believe that the levels were comparable at locations so distant. "

Interesting point Alan Jacobs asserts with: " And so there is little reason to believe that the levels were comparable at locations so distant.

If the rapids that "Art thinks that the river may be lower now than when Tyrrell went through as Tyrrell didn’t have much trouble with any of these rapids than when Tryell ran them ( [Pessl book, p 91] ), then is it not reasonable that the rapids were also lower down river (just above Marjorie Lake)? Thus they would have be comparable in the fact that both were lower? Supporting the argument that lower water also manifested rapids when Moffatt's group did the second rapid (Marjorie Lake) that Tryell also did without hazard.

This is not a minor point. After spring melt and ice out rivers loose volume unless some extraordinary rain occurs.

Alan Jacobs: "My experience is that lower water generally means less danger, not more danger."

The use of "generally" implies that there are exceptions. The circumstances of can be explored. If the water is high enough to have the river bottom low enough, then the turbulence around the irregular bottom with not manifest itself. It appears Jacobs experience runs counter to Mottatt's experience. And I thought Moffatt was beyond reproach!

I have been on some rivers where high water turns a fairly straight forward paddle into a nightmare. I have been on other rivers where high water turned it into a lilly dip, with rapids that had been previously challenging being completely buried. Hence, the term "scout" often used in canoeing circles to denote checking out a rapid before one runs it.

Alan Jacobs, the use of the word "generally" does not make for a convincing argument.