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PostPosted: February 5th, 2020, 11:49 am 
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Joined: June 28th, 2001, 7:00 pm
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Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
seekingadventure13 wrote:
Looks like I have a lot more searching to do as well as some more saving!


I am not familiar with Canadian pricing on PFDs, paddles, racks or etc, and simply took a best guess at the associated costs in Canadian dollars. I’d welcome someone better informed checking my estimates and perhaps providing some make/model examples of “good enough” starter paddles and Canada-approved PFDs. I’m mostly curious if I guessed high or low on those costs.

I’m pretty sure our US-certified PFD’s are ok in Canada, but perhaps only because we are from the US? In any case I like to be canoeing-legal. The requirements (PFD, throw bag, whistle, bailer*) are not onerous, and I carry a bit more in potential “safety” gear - small waterproof flashlight, compass, rescue beener, waterproof lighter – in my PFD pockets. Also a $20 bill in a little pouch; Jefferson has been used (and replaced) more than anything else.

*Beg to differ side note: I looked at the Canadian mandatory gear list to make sure I remembered correctly, and the first link that popped up was MEC.

https://www.mec.ca/en/explore/mandatory-paddling-gear

From that link:
Bailer or Pump
A simple scoop made from a cut-open bottle would fulfill the law, but a proper pump will empty your boat faster.

I’m calling BS on that one. I foolishly tried to empty a capsized boat using a bilge pump. A decked canoe with little gear aboard, capsized in deep enough water that a emptying flip (more roll over than flip) didn’t empty much. After 10 minutes of hanging off the side vigorously pumping the hull was still ¾ full.

A cut down laundry detergent bottle, giant 3.62 liter version with thick plastic and great handle, was wayyyy faster and more efficient. A bilge pump is appropriate for a kayak with sealed bulkheads, but for an open boat a cut down detergent bottle and sponge makes much more sense.

The required 15 meters (50 feet) of “heaving line” better be in a throw-bag, not just to keep it neatly stored and ready to throw. Per MEC:
“ Many non-whitewater paddlers carry a combination throwline-towline. A towline is useful for most craft-to-craft rescues in open water, and for towing tired paddlers”

I’m lost on the towline bit and have never met a canoe tripper sporting a towline. Maybe some canoe guide application; I know a couple sea kayak guides who carry and (weak client) use them occasionally.

I have needed a throw bag a few times, and even with practice I am accurate only to 40 feet or so with our easiest to toss throw bags. With my limitations landing the perfect throw bag toss on the first try is still a proud moment.

I’m sure there is a technique for throwing 15 meters of (coiled?) “heaving line”, but as a required item a well designed throw bag makes more sense as canoe gear.


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PostPosted: February 5th, 2020, 11:50 am 
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Location: Winnipeg, MB
I am a much bigger fan of Royalex/T-Formex than Tuff-Stuff. Not just the material vs $$ but also the stupid hooks sticking out the end of the Tuff Stuff boats. I also prefer no float chambers and adding float bags. Bags are an added cost but are way more practical. The hooks can be replaced with grommets but that's another expense. A new T-Formex boat isn't much more than a used Tuff Stuff. A newish rental/demo T-Formex will be cheaper than a used Tuff Stuff. Lots of used Royalex and T-Formex boats out there. A 16' isn't very heavy. Carrying a boat takes some getting used to but I have no issues with my 17' Royalex; I've taken it on some long portages using a leap frog technique for breaks.

I prefer composite boats to have no gel coat like Souris River. I also regret focusing on buying lightweight boats when I first started paddling. It's a big cost to reduce weight and I don't see the benefit personally at 38 yrs old. Light boats are super frustrating to carry in the wind anyway.

I second Mike's comment about PFDs, throw bags, etc. Keep an eye out for clearance MsFit/OutFit Kokatats; they're great. Level Six has been clearing out old stock throw bags for very cheap. Not sure if they have stock left.

Another expense to keep in mind is an intro to moving water course. I put off taking a moving water course to buy more gear and I have yet to buy a peice of gear more valuable than a moving water course (although paddling without a canoe is a little tricky).


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PostPosted: February 5th, 2020, 2:31 pm 
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Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
Neil Fitzpatrick wrote:
I am a much bigger fan of Royalex/T-Formex than Tuff-Stuff. Not just the material vs $$ but also the stupid hooks sticking out the end of the Tuff Stuff boats. I also prefer no float chambers and adding float bags. Bags are an added cost but are way more practical.


Neil, I agree with (almost) all of that, including those WTF ugly eye bolts. That ugly eye bolt makes no sense to me. Hell, I move too-high through hull painter line holes down nearer the cut line on the stems.

ImageP5260015 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Caps for the old holes, a pair of electrical conduit fittings, short piece of hose, little G/flex and presto, water tight “tug-eyes” near the cutwater for a buck apiece.

ImageP5260017 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Our canoes are all set up with through hull or under-inwale ties and D-rings to accommodate floatation bags. Plural, large or small float bags. I’d rather install the size-appropriate floatation bags under a quick lacing and lashing system, even on canoes that have float tanks. I know the tanks or foam core buoyant RX will “float” the boat. Just not very high; when it is running away downstream, capsized and bouncing off rocks, I’d like it to ride a little higher, with more water displaced from the hull.

Some of those same tie down points and D-rings are equally handy for securing gear.

Neil Fitzpatrick wrote:
I also regret focusing on buying lightweight boats when I first started paddling. It's a big cost to reduce weight and I don't see the benefit personally at 38 yrs old. Light boats are super frustrating to carry in the wind anyway.


I didn’t regret it from when I first started, But pushing into my sixties I wish I had sprung for some lighter-than-Royalex composite canoes when I had the affordable chance. My comfort in simply getting a 60 - 70lb RX hull from the canoe rack to the roof rack to the water makes me lust for some 40lb canoe, yoke shouldered windage be damned.

Neil Fitzpatrick wrote:
I second Mike's comment about PFDs, throw bags, etc. Keep an eye out for clearance MsFit/OutFit Kokatats; they're great. Level Six has been clearing out old stock throw bags for very cheap. Not sure if they have stock left.


Likewise agreed. Most of our better quality paddling gear came from keeping an eye out for manufacturer or retailer discounted/clearance gear. The generation #3 redesign of something isn’t that functionally different from Gen 2, and if the 50% off pricing is simply to clear the shelves of the previous model, I’m good with that.

Funny thing is we have some earlier iteration gear, before the Mark III version, that I prefer over that “improved” design. I know it is hard for a manufacturer to leave well enough alone, but sometimes change for the sake of change doesn’t make functional sense.

Neil Fitzpatrick wrote:
Another expense to keep in mind is an intro to moving water course. I put off taking a moving water course to buy more gear and I have yet to buy a peice of gear more valuable than a moving water course (although paddling without a canoe is a little tricky).


Also agreed, although I took mine through local canoe club classes. Bang for buck a canoe club that offers paddling classes, rescue classes and first aid classes is the best $15-$20 membership fee you can spend. Competent canoe clubs may be a dying breed, those geezers still volunteering their time to teach have a lot of river miles under their PFD.

And you’ll meet some wonderful, locally knowledgeable paddlers. I don’t know if that applies to other folk’s areas; the mid-Atlantic region was once the bastion of active cruise-schedules and sundry classes canoe clubs.

Best $15 I ever spent. Even though I’m essentially a solo paddling hermit I still get out with a few of those folks.


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PostPosted: February 6th, 2020, 6:00 am 
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Location: Simcoe, Ontario Canada
Our first canoe was a 16’ Nova Craft Prospector. Kevlar/Spectra. It’s a great boat.

That being said, we found that the height at the bow and stern and width of the Nova a little much for us.

We sold the boat and purchased a Souris River Prospector, (narrower and shallower at the bow and stern). We find that the profile of the SR makes paddling easier for us, especially in the wind. It is also more responsive, which I feel makes paddling in big waves easier.

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PostPosted: February 6th, 2020, 10:16 am 
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Joined: March 26th, 2013, 9:27 pm
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Location: Winnipeg, MB
Mike McCrea wrote:
Also agreed, although I took mine through local canoe club classes. Bang for buck a canoe club that offers paddling classes, rescue classes and first aid classes is the best $15-$20 membership fee you can spend. Competent canoe clubs may be a dying breed, those geezers still volunteering their time to teach have a lot of river miles under their PFD.

And you’ll meet some wonderful, locally knowledgeable paddlers. I don’t know if that applies to other folk’s areas; the mid-Atlantic region was once the bastion of active cruise-schedules and sundry classes canoe clubs.

Best $15 I ever spent. Even though I’m essentially a solo paddling hermit I still get out with a few of those folks.


I should be clear about moving water courses. Some people think (as I did) that these are courses you take to get into whitewater. Yes, it is the first step if you do want to get into whitewater; but they're also very important from a safety point of view. Even if you portage every rapid on a river, understanding current and its effect on your boat helps you safely get in and out of your boat at rapids. The week before my first moving water course I had to ferry between two rapids as the portage trail was RL (river left) on the first rapid and RR on the second. We leaned the wrong way, dumped and got stranded on an island.

And to paddle a canoe and not paddle rivers is like going to Disneyland and staying in the parking lot. Or maybe not since if I went to Disneyland I'd have a panic attack and never leave the car...


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PostPosted: February 6th, 2020, 3:22 pm 
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Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
Neil Fitzpatrick wrote:
I should be clear about moving water courses. Some people think (as I did) that these are courses you take to get into whitewater. Yes, it is the first step if you do want to get into whitewater; but they're also very important from a safety point of view.


The local clubs had a climb-the-ladder series of classes, from Intro to Flatwater Paddling basic strokes to serious WW instructional. While I did not climb that ladder very far, and had no interest in pure whitewater play, I still leaned a lot.

The best part of a local paddling club membership was the cruise schedule trips led by old hands; there was a lot of teaching and learning just following them down a river, simply watching what they did and how they did it.

Neil Fitzpatrick wrote:
And to paddle a canoe and not paddle rivers is like going to Disneyland and staying in the parking lot. Or maybe not since if I went to Disneyland I'd have a panic attack and never leave the car...


Never been, never will. Given the choice I’d be out in the parking lot with you.

If we’re talking Disney World we wouldn’t be twiddling our fingers in the parking lot, there is some awesome Florida paddling an hour’s drive in any direction from Orlando, including Ocala and both coasts.


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PostPosted: February 8th, 2020, 9:10 am 
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Joined: February 1st, 2020, 6:26 pm
Posts: 12
So much great info! I really appreciate all your opinions and advice.

I've been searching kijiji, FB marketplace and outfitters for used canoes and although I admittedly do not know much at all about what to look for (I usually just google what ever I come across and read some reviews) I'm not really finding too much. It seems like all the canoe that come up are either $400-$500 and look like they've been laying in someones back yard for years with no info on the canoe or they're $2000+ and as soon as I message someone about anything around $2k they say it's already sold.

I'm beginning to think that if I don't come across anything the Fiberglass NC P-16 from MEC is going to be my boat.

Someone also mentioned about the keel on the MEC canoes. I read that you are able to get them with or without keel (might have to wait a several weeks though).


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PostPosted: February 8th, 2020, 11:14 am 
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For example... This seems like something that might be good but it's a former outffiter rental with lots of repairs. Is it worth $2000? (apparently weighs about 40lbs).

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-canoe-kayak-pad ... 1486456194


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PostPosted: February 8th, 2020, 11:58 am 
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Joined: February 28th, 2018, 10:54 am
Posts: 80
Location: SW Quebec
seekingadventure13 wrote:
For example... This seems like something that might be good but it's a former outffiter rental with lots of repairs. Is it worth $2000? (apparently weighs about 40lbs).

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-canoe-kayak-pad ... 1486456194


A quick build-and-price on Swift's site gives a retail of $3295 + tax.

This particular advertiser is inviting reasonable offers.


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PostPosted: February 8th, 2020, 12:35 pm 
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scratchypants wrote:
seekingadventure13 wrote:
For example... This seems like something that might be good but it's a former outffiter rental with lots of repairs. Is it worth $2000? (apparently weighs about 40lbs).

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-canoe-kayak-pad ... 1486456194


A quick build-and-price on Swift's site gives a retail of $3295 + tax.

This particular advertiser is inviting reasonable offers.



It's probably just me but I have a hard time paying more for a used canoe than a comparable new fiberglass NC. I know the kevlar ones are lighter than glass but am I wrong in preferring a brand new heavier glass over a used lighter kevlar?


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PostPosted: February 8th, 2020, 1:26 pm 
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Location: SW Quebec
I'd say that you are in the very enviable position of knowing what you want and what you are willing to pay for it.


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PostPosted: February 8th, 2020, 1:30 pm 
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scratchypants wrote:
I'd say that you are in the very enviable position of knowing what you want and what you are willing to pay for it.


The problem however is that my wants and what i'm willing to pay for are too far apart! :lol:


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PostPosted: February 8th, 2020, 2:27 pm 
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Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
seekingadventure13 wrote:
It's probably just me but I have a hard time paying more for a used canoe than a comparable new fiberglass NC. I know the kevlar ones are lighter than glass but am I wrong in preferring a brand new heavier glass over a used lighter kevlar?


Not necessarily. I’ve bought a lot of used canoes. I’ve bought a lot of used vehicles. But since 1984 every truck has been purchased new. I knew exactly what I wanted in the way of make, model and (few if any) options and I wasn’t going to find such a specimen low mileage used for that much less than off a dealer’s lot.

On the whole I’d rather have a kevlar canoe than a glass canoe, but I happily drove some plain Jane 2WD vinyl bench seat trucks. AM/FM, crank windows, no AC, but every mile on them was mine.

seekingadventure13 wrote:
The problem however is that my wants and what i'm willing to pay for are too far apart!


Not that far apart. If you were pondering dropping $1700 for a new glass Prospector or up to $2900 for Tuff Stuff you have a better budget than many folks looking to buy their first canoe.

A quality used canoe opens a lot of possibilities, banking the rest for a roof rack, paddles and PFDs.

The 2K kevlar Algonquin went fast, and as part of a repaired rental fleet seemed a little high to me, but serious bargains in used outfitter canoes are uncommon; outfitters know what the used market will bear in their area.


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PostPosted: February 10th, 2020, 1:05 pm 
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The Outdoors show is in two weeks, Feb 21 weekend at the international center in Miississauga on Airport Road and Derry. All the top builders and dealers will be there in one spot which will save you lots of driving around from dealer to dealer or factories. But I agree with what has been mentioned above, don't buy brand new in fiberglass, lots of lightly used choices in the aftermarket for a fraction of new cost.

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PostPosted: February 10th, 2020, 3:52 pm 
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Captaincanadian wrote:
The Outdoors show is in two weeks, Feb 21 weekend at the international center in Miississauga on Airport Road and Derry. All the top builders and dealers will be there in one spot which will save you lots of driving around from dealer to dealer or factories. But I agree with what has been mentioned above, don't buy brand new in fiberglass, lots of lightly used choices in the aftermarket for a fraction of new cost.


The London Boat, fishing and outdoor show is the same weekend which I was planning on checking out.

As for lots of lightly used choices for a fraction of the price..I've been looking pretty hard and haven't had much luck in finding anything lightly used for a decent price.


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