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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 3:29 pm 
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Splake wrote:
RHaslam wrote:
... It can be had in a variety of layups, tuff stuff probably being the one to best suit you. ...


Nah, TuffStuff is still a cloth/resin layup so that makes it identical to carbon fibre based on the definition that Canuck Energy applied to claim that Kevlar is identical to carbon fibre. :doh: (Side note, yes the Kevlar molecule contains carbon, no it does not have the same molecular structure as carbon fibre)

Honestly, this thread feels like a troll, but it's still the middle of canoe season and we don't usually see the trolls come out until January.

Nonetheless, if you want a tandem boat that is big enough to be a tandem tripping boat but still be manageable solo then take a look at the John Winters Swift designs. They are asymmetrical hulls that typically transition from a shallow arch hull in the front section to a shallow V in the stern section. That makes for really good tracking and handling. For soloing you can add a kneeling thwart, or even add brackets for a third seat.

My Temagami was my go to boat when tripping 1-on-1 with the kids when they were as young as 9 because of the handling characteristics. I've also soloed that boat in the French River area although it took work. I wouldn't recommend going as large as the Temagami or the Quetico based on the expectation you would be tripping solo 40% of the time. Rather I'm offering this info as proof that a John Winters design could be a good fit for you.

Note that my Temagami has an optional 3rd seat right behind the sliding bow seat. It takes about 5 minutes to put it in or remove it - 4 screws and lock nuts. The brackets have never been a hindrance when using the canoe without the 3rd seat. Those same brackets could readily have been mounted between the yoke and the stern thwart.


No I'm not a troll, the whole reason I'm having such a difficult tone choosing a boat is because I'm going against many conventions. I know the experience I want and and I'm struggling to communicate it. I'm the type of person who has a bias for durability, this is because I'm a huge person who often finds himself in a world made for smaller people. It **** sucks and you calling me a troll for it makes you suck too. I don't "speak canoe" I just joined this forum.

And frankly your John winters this and Temagani that isn't all that readily helpful either. Who Makes them?

Also kneeling is mostly out, two reasons I'm big and kneeling stucks when you are big, and I work construction in a fashion that abuses my knees. I don't need additional knee stress when I'm trying to enjoy a hobby.

Edit: also my only issue with Kevlar or carbon fiber is price. Otherwise I'm very fond of it. Who doesn't like lightweight. Tuffstuff is definitely a choice I'm willing to consider.


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 3:34 pm 
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Mike McCrea wrote:
The Souris River Quetico 16 specifications are very close to some of the canoes I recommended as Royalex possibilities, 16’ 2” long, 34” gunwale width, 20”/14”/20” depth, 2” symmetrical rocker.

https://www.sourisriver.com/quetico-16

The aluminum thwart behind the bow seat might need to be moved for a long legged paddler, but otherwise it’s right in the same ballpark dimensionally.


Yes I've been looking at these now that I've begun this post. There is a renter here that sells their boats at the end of the season. There seems to be a notable difference between the 16' and the 17', thoughts?


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 3:43 pm 
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I have paddled the Quetico 16 as well, and strangely enough, I did not like it nearly as much as the 17. It felt more tender in my opinion. Canuck, if you get the opportunity, paddle as many different canoes as you can. At this point in your canoe experience, you'll probably be better off going with what feels best. Canoeists are like anyone else, and will push for the kind that they know best, kind of like the chevy vs ford truck thing. I've got over a dozen of the things in a wide variety of of styles and materials, and tend to use them all for different purposes. I'm not sure which one I would stick with if had to pick only one.


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 4:23 pm 
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scratchypants wrote:
There is no thwart behind the bow seat on the Q16 - only between the yoke and stern seat.


My bad, should have looked at the link I posted instead of relying on the fog of memory.

RHaslam wrote:
I have paddled the Quetico 16 as well, and strangely enough, I did not like it nearly as much as the 17. It felt more tender in my opinion. Canuck, if you get the opportunity, paddle as many different canoes as you can. At this point in your canoe experience, you'll probably be better off going with what feels best. Canoeists are like anyone else, and will push for the kind that they know best, kind of like the chevy vs ford truck thing.


I do not remember the bottom shape of the Quetico, and at some indiscernible point the shallow arch I prefer becomes the rounder bottom I do not.

Some manufacturers at least mention the bottom shape, shallow arch or shallow vee or etc. Very few offer a photo that shows the bottom shape; a photo of the hull upside-down, shot level with the keel line would be helpful in that regard, and would also illustrate the flare, tumblehome or etc on the sides.

RHaslam wrote:
I've got over a dozen of the things in a wide variety of of styles and materials, and tend to use them all for different purposes. I'm not sure which one I would stick with if had to pick only one.


Reinforcing my comment about a “first canoe”. We currently have 15 solos (or soloized tandems), but no longer own any of our first half dozen boats, all of which served us well at the time.

Almost all were bought used. A point about buying used; a good value used canoe can often be sold later for near what you paid.


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 4:58 pm 
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I can't find a NovaCraft price list online so I can't comment on whether TuffStuff versions are cheaper than Kevlar or not. MEC lists some NovaCraft canoes, but they don't seem to be stocked so I wouldn't rely on the prices listed there as they may be out of date. I would be a bit surprised if a new TuffStuff boat was cheaper than a new Kevlar boat but they might be.

Swift builds the John Winters designs. They were the mainstream offerings for years but are currently listed under "Special Editions" https://www.swiftcanoe.com/special-editions They also happen to be really hard to find on the used market. Not sure if you're open to a used canoe but that could help with hitting your budget.

I can empathize with not wanting to kneel, which is where having the mounting brackets for a 3rd seat is worth considering. Even if you do got with a symmetrical canoe, having 3rd seat specifically positioned for solo paddling would be a good investment given how much you expect to use the canoe solo.

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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 5:36 pm 
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Splake wrote:
I can't find a NovaCraft price list online so I can't comment on whether TuffStuff versions are cheaper than Kevlar or not. MEC lists some NovaCraft canoes, but they don't seem to be stocked so I wouldn't rely on the prices listed there as they may be out of date. I would be a bit surprised if a new TuffStuff boat was cheaper than a new Kevlar boat but they might be.

Swift builds the John Winters designs. They were the mainstream offerings for years but are currently listed under "Special Editions" https://www.swiftcanoe.com/special-editions They also happen to be really hard to find on the used market. Not sure if you're open to a used canoe but that could help with hitting your budget.

I can empathize with not wanting to kneel, which is where having the mounting brackets for a 3rd seat is worth considering. Even if you do got with a symmetrical canoe, having 3rd seat specifically positioned for solo paddling would be a good investment given how much you expect to use the canoe solo.


Wildernesses supply would be my go to dealer for Nova craft. Iunless competitive prices I can't see buying from MEC, too limited. Actually they carry a good deal of brands but that is to say special order. In-stock and rentals more limited.

I'm very open to buying used, I'm just pessimistic about the market, lots of ancient fibreglass, plastic Canadian Tire boats, and prospectors. But I've seen a few rental places that turn over their units often. Lots of clear Kevlar Souris River.


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 6:32 pm 
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Location: SW Quebec
The Quetico 16 is fairly flat, but like the other sizes, it has a short, dramatic flare from the entry line to the wide part of the hull. It has to be properly trimmed or it paddles like a bath tub (or so was my experience).


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PostPosted: September 5th, 2019, 9:54 pm 
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Post deleted... Thought there was a decent local Kijiji ad, but having seen the photo they now added, it was not what I expected based on the brand and description.

P.

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PostPosted: September 7th, 2019, 7:30 am 
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Have not read most of the posts in this thread but all the hemming and hawing back and forth might have been unnecessary with a simple visit to a dealer to test-paddle. I've emailed Swift and Algonquin Outfitters in the past and they will allow time for test-paddling in order to reach a decision. Better still, they might be willing to apply rental fees from a short canoe trip into the park against a purchase. A lot of time can be spent arguing over the internet over what's the best choice when actually spending time in one or several will be the best kind of feedback available to make the decision on.

Good luck, be comfortable.

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PostPosted: November 9th, 2019, 1:10 pm 
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scratchypants wrote:
As MartinG mentioned, try a SR Quetico. The advantage to that boat is that it is very popular with outfitters and many turn their inventory frequently - sometimes yearly. I recently paddled a 16' and noted that when properly trimmed it handled very easily. I had my 150lb nephew in the bow, fishing, while I paddled us around the lake in light-but-gusty conditions. Consequently, in tight maneuvers, it was like trying to steer a telephone pole. I've been looking for something, too. H2O's Innegra Basalt in the Epoxy Pro series is a material in which I'd be interested, though I haven't seen many rental fleets offering this layup in anything but the prospector (which I tried and found to be quite squirrely - because I probably suck).


Hello all.

I think this might be my first post here but I've been 'lurking' (that sounds so sordid lol) for some time.

I'm looking for a good 16' prospector and one of the canoes on my list is the H2O prospector in the innegra basalt. It will be mostly for tandem but I want it to perform well solo as a Style canoe (ie great, well controlled pivots) and good initial as well as secondary stability.

My question here is mostly directed at the above comment by scratchypants. What did you mean by 'squirrelly'? Did you find that while solo or tandem? And do you think that feeling was a result of design or material?


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PostPosted: November 9th, 2019, 1:42 pm 
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Bluknu wrote:
scratchypants wrote:
As MartinG mentioned, try a SR Quetico. The advantage to that boat is that it is very popular with outfitters and many turn their inventory frequently - sometimes yearly. I recently paddled a 16' and noted that when properly trimmed it handled very easily. I had my 150lb nephew in the bow, fishing, while I paddled us around the lake in light-but-gusty conditions. Consequently, in tight maneuvers, it was like trying to steer a telephone pole. I've been looking for something, too. H2O's Innegra Basalt in the Epoxy Pro series is a material in which I'd be interested, though I haven't seen many rental fleets offering this layup in anything but the prospector (which I tried and found to be quite squirrely - because I probably suck).


Hello all.

I think this might be my first post here but I've been 'lurking' (that sounds so sordid lol) for some time.

I'm looking for a good 16' prospector and one of the canoes on my list is the H2O prospector in the innegra basalt. It will be mostly for tandem but I want it to perform well solo as a Style canoe (ie great, well controlled pivots) and good initial as well as secondary stability.

My question here is mostly directed at the above comment by scratchypants. What did you mean by 'squirrelly'? Did you find that while solo or tandem? And do you think that feeling was a result of design or material?


Credit where it is due: I think it's a great boat - just not for me (us). The outfitter that rented to us (on my request) said that it really performs well with a bit of weight. That subtle remark was later translated by me to mean that we would have benefited from at least an additional 100 lbs. My wife and I, with gear for 4 (mid-Spring) days came in at around 425 lbs. It sat high with that load and boy did we feel it. Primary stability was less than what we would have liked. I'll tell you what, though - crazy responsive. Once we got into the groove it slipped along with little effort. Which was great because we dared not venture beyond 100 feet from shore for the entire trip. I did not paddle it solo.

Lots of folks like them, though, so I would say that you should try one for yourself. After my experience, I would never consider plonking down for a new boat without a test paddle.


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PostPosted: November 9th, 2019, 2:25 pm 
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Thank you for your response scratchypants.

I would definitely test paddle first. At the moment I am narrowing down my list. Novacraft, Swift and H2O are currently the front runners for new. I am looking for something with more rocker than the Swift I think. Of course a really decent used canoe is always in the running.

I am considering whether a heavier boat will amount to increased stability but I hate manhandling something that is too heavy for solo use. I'm too old for that s-tuff. Lol I do already have a beautiful little 14' Swift solo prospector for solo backcountry trips. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: November 9th, 2019, 2:27 pm 
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Its very hard to translate boat performance from flat boat to heeled way over unless you are used to both Style and tandem FreeStyle paddling as well as tripping.
Tandem teams heel the tandem canoe over on its side ( side shape matters and bottom way less) as well as Style paddlers.

Squirrely is often a sensation when you are sitting and the seat is too high for your personal mental tastes. Kneeling can elicit a totally different feeling.

Prospectors have rounded bottoms and are never known ( unless their name has been pirated to a different shaped hull and no that has never happened :roll: ) to be outstanding in primary stability.

If you take lessons this is never a long standing problem. Instructors ( not You tube) but actual in person instruction are very useful
A heavier boat is going to sink very little more. Archimedes principle: weight of water displaced =weight of object. Another 30 lbs and the water will not care. You can try to do the volume equations. It works out to about a quarter of an inch. Another 30 lbs and You may care on the portages.


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PostPosted: November 9th, 2019, 3:15 pm 
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Location: SW Quebec
For what it's worth, we later test-paddled a Nova Craft Cronje (described as having less primary stability than many boats), found it to be ideal, and have one on order for Spring delivery.


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PostPosted: November 9th, 2019, 4:57 pm 
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Thank you littleredcanoe.

I have taken lessons (solo and tandem) and have lots of tripping experience (again both solo and tandem). My concerns are more for the comfort and skill levels of paddling partners with much less experience. Lol. And if I understand what you are saying the actual weight of the canoe will make little to no difference on the stability. Good to know. Being a woman I really hate manhandling a heavier canoe and I am pretty stubborn about being independent. Lol

Thank you again scratchypants. There are a couple of Novacraft models on my list and they are not terribly far from my neck of the woods.


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