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Response to the post of Alan Gage
https://www.myccr.com/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=181&t=47746
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Author:  Allan Jacobs [ October 29th, 2019, 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Response to the post of Alan Gage

AG's text, repeated for the convenience of the reader.

Since this thread was started I've run across numerous accounts of paddlers, both recent and historical, who have come across rapids that didn't exist on maps, were in the wrong location, or were much bigger than indicated. In all of those cases the paddlers trusted what their eyes and ears were telling them rather than the information they'd been given through maps, text, or personal guidance.
Moffatt flat out took a stupid chance and paid for it. Not saying he deserved it but that's what happened.
And I still don't understand the need to defend him. Most of these "betrayals", to my mind, are a real stretch. It's like watching a TV documentary where they need to trump up a story for drama.
Alan


AG made no reference to the evidence that I presented previously in this thread, namely that the sole change made by Grinnell to the Sports Illustrated condensation of Lanouette's journal was to redact a three-sentence passage. I refer the reader to the top of p 202 of his book.

Author:  Alan Gage [ October 29th, 2019, 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Response to the post of Alan Gage

Allan Jacobs wrote:
AG's text, repeated for the convenience of the reader.

Since this thread was started I've run across numerous accounts of paddlers, both recent and historical, who have come across rapids that didn't exist on maps, were in the wrong location, or were much bigger than indicated. In all of those cases the paddlers trusted what their eyes and ears were telling them rather than the information they'd been given through maps, text, or personal guidance.
Moffatt flat out took a stupid chance and paid for it. Not saying he deserved it but that's what happened.
And I still don't understand the need to defend him. Most of these "betrayals", to my mind, are a real stretch. It's like watching a TV documentary where they need to trump up a story for drama.
Alan


AG made no reference to the evidence that I presented previously in this thread, namely that the sole change made by Grinnell to the Sports Illustrated condensation of Lanouette's journal was to redact a three-sentence passage. I refer the reader to the top of p 202 of his book.


I addressed it when you brought this point up earlier in the thread and haven't changed my opinion so didn't feel there was a need to state it again. I also feel it's a red herring and ignores what and how things really happened.

I would also like to note that you haven't addressed why other paddlers seem to be able deal with incorrect maps/information but Moffatt couldn't. There is good evidence (also brought up in the Moffatt thread) that there were other map errors and information inconsistencies encountered earlier in the trip. By the time of Moffatt's death they knew they shouldn't expect reality to match the maps.

For the third time I'm going to swear off responding to the Moffatt thread. It just keeps getting to be a farther and farther reach.

Alan

Author:  RHaslam [ October 29th, 2019, 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Response to the post of Alan Gage

Mr. Jacobs, why would you start a thread, using a members name, to try to further a tired argument? It smacks of disrespect and is in poor taste. If I were still a moderator on this forum, I would delete this thread.

Author:  david demello [ October 29th, 2019, 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response to the post of Alan Gage

date stamped: Dec 07,2018 3:38 p.m.

Image

************************************************************************************

Fred "Skip" Pessl wrote in XVII PREFACE of his book "Barren Grounds":

The weather grew harsh. Freezing temperatures, wind-driven snow, dwindling food supplies, and deteriorating equipment pushed us hard to travel faster and more efficiently, and ultimately we made a fatal mistake. We approached Majorie Lake with caution, without an onshore look. Standing up in our canoes as we floated toward the rapids, we saw a modest current sweeping toward the right-hand bend and drove our canoes into that initial current V.

The rest is wilderness canoeing history. ..."

*************************************************************************************

In his epilogue (page 173), Pessl writes: "Our journey was delayed and tragically interrupted because we did not differentiate between what worked on the Albany River what would not work in the late season on the Dubawnt
The deteriorating weather exacerbated our concerns about our dwindling food supply, threatening frostbite and unknown river conditions, and it changed our modus operandi from cautious land-based scouting of rapids to a floating assessment as we were sucked into the headwater Vs of each successive rapid. It worked for several days and many rapids, except for one."

Alan Gage has a compelling argument that finds support in the Pessl excerpts.

Author:  jbishop2112 [ October 30th, 2019, 5:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Response to the post of Alan Gage

I have to admit, this moffatt thing is hard to shake. I can't look away from it either. I can say that tangentially it has prodded me into picking up my long-ignored copy of Innis book on the fur trade and plowing through it, a tougher slog than any portage I've yet experienced.

Author:  david demello [ October 30th, 2019, 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response to the post of Alan Gage

Referencing this quote from Alan Gage:
Quote:
I would also like to note that you haven't addressed why other paddlers seem to be able deal with incorrect maps/information but Moffatt couldn't. There is good evidence (also brought up in the Moffatt thread) that there were other map errors and information inconsistencies encountered earlier in the trip. By the time of Moffatt's death they knew they shouldn't expect reality to match the maps.

I present this excerpt from George Whalley's "The Legend of John Hornby" pg. 233: "But a dangerous rapid with a drop of eleven feet, unmarked on Tyrrell's map, took the pleasure out of things;....."

Author:  MikeD [ October 31st, 2019, 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Response to the post of Alan Gage

pe·dan·tic
/pəˈdan(t)ik/
adjective: pedantic ---- of or like a pedant.
"many of the essays are long, dense, and too pedantic to hold great appeal"

Author:  david demello [ November 1st, 2019, 5:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Response to the post of Alan Gage

MikeD, sorry you are annoyed with this endless nonsense. What would you like to see happen? Perhaps we can make it happen.

Author:  MikeD [ November 1st, 2019, 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Response to the post of Alan Gage

Be less pedantic.

MikeD.

Author:  david demello [ November 1st, 2019, 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response to the post of Alan Gage

"Be less pedantic." Be more parsimonious, perhaps even acquiescent?

Author:  Wabakimi Guy [ November 1st, 2019, 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response to the post of Alan Gage

How about you do your posts in Haiku.

Author:  david demello [ November 1st, 2019, 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response to the post of Alan Gage

I don't have those pretensions. Now I am getting some clarity as to who reads this and I am beginning to wonder why I do it. No engagement on subject discussed. All style no content. What a waste of time.

Author:  RHaslam [ November 1st, 2019, 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response to the post of Alan Gage

Moffat paddled hard
Or hardly paddled at all
Who has the answer?

Author:  wotrock [ November 1st, 2019, 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response to the post of Alan Gage

It seems to me, based on my limited reading, that the fundamental errors were in the planning---starting later and then taking quite a bit of time for photos. This led to the rush and the decision to run w/o scouting. Any other errors in judgement flowed from the planning errors. That's obviously all hindsight. Everyone makes errors of course---some pay dearly for them,others are more lucky.

Author:  david demello [ November 1st, 2019, 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response to the post of Alan Gage

"Everyone makes errors of course---some pay dearly for them,others are more lucky." coupled with "....it changed our modus operandi from cautious land-based scouting of rapids to a floating assessment as we were sucked into the headwater Vs of each successive rapid. It worked for several days and many rapids, except for one." has value

I know I have tested limits enough to know I tested my luck. Regardless, my choice, my responsibility.

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