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PostPosted: April 24th, 2002, 9:14 pm 
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I did a double take on this at a paddlesports show last weekend.
Canoes are becoming more like kayaks, I guess.
Either the Mad River people have figured out how to ease the new solo paddlers frustrations and this is a marketing gimmick, or maybe it really does help keep course in cross or sternwinds.
They put a skeg on the Independence.


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PostPosted: April 25th, 2002, 6:44 pm 
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Have to wonder where an idea like that comes from. Don't get me wrong, I have a MR Guide and think that it is the absolute best solo moving water tripper out there and I know several other people that have MR canoes and love them. Well designed and well put together. Back to the skeg. That had to be the marketing dept at work. Yaks are hot right now and canoes are not. Look around at outdoor shows or dealers and what do you see more of, thats right, kayaks! Ever see any funky SUV commercials with canoes on top of them. NO. So the question is, how to make a canoe track easily like a rec kayak with a skeg. Put a skeg on a canoe. Don't like the idea but sure would like to paddle it. Proabably turned an already fast boat into a rocket.


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PostPosted: April 26th, 2002, 1:08 am 
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What's a skeg & why would it make a canoe go faster?


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PostPosted: April 26th, 2002, 6:40 am 
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It's kinda like a dagger board or fin near the back of the canoe. It would make it go faster only if you don't have a good forward stroke by improving tracking. It would help in a cross wind, but the penalty is more drag due to friction. Since most paddle effort at cruising speeds is to overcome friction drag vice wave making drag, you'll have to work harder.

If it is retractable, you get turbulence drag due to the slot even when it's retracted and failure potential of the cable/pivot mechanism.

Not for me. I like efficient hulls and prefer to develop good paddle technique, even for kayaks where they are common.

Al

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Al Rolle on 2002-04-26 08:22 ]</font>


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PostPosted: April 26th, 2002, 7:33 am 
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[quote]
On 2002-04-25 19:44, scoops wrote:
Have to wonder where an idea like that comes from. Don't get me wrong, I have a MR Guide and think that it is the absolute best solo moving water tripper out there
[quote]

Speaking of the Guide Scoops, do you think it's adequate for class three with no packs and with air bags? I'm looking for something to do rocky, mountain creeks in the Southeast that would be reasonable fast in the calm sections. Do you have an idea what the rocker is say 10" back from the ends?

Al


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PostPosted: April 26th, 2002, 2:46 pm 
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Shouldn't be a problem. Slight rocker through the middle, really increases about 3 ft to the bow and stern. I travel with end bags and maybe 125lbs(I take gear from other boats to trim) and the only time take on any amount of water is at the bottom of chutes 'cause the bow is quite sharp. Turns quick,ferries and surfs well. Don't have any problems keeping up to the tandems on the flats.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: scoops on 2002-04-26 15:47 ]</font>


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PostPosted: April 26th, 2002, 4:36 pm 
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Al, too bad you didnt come to the East Coast Canoe (six) and Kayak (six hundred) Festival in Charleston.
I had a student with a MR Guide. I didnt measure the rocker 10 inches from stem, but I would guess three inches. Its a pretty nifty boat for freestyle, and the ends free out of the water nicely. I dont think the bow is as pointy as your Rendezvous. The Guide is 15'6" but in ABS its 57 lbs. I think it comes in a composite layup (not glass) also.
The other lovely thing about skegs is you have to keep the sand out otherwise they jam, so this requires some meticulous attention.
Which I am not apt to give. Even in a sea kayak I would much rather add a box liner from five dollar fine wine(with the wine in me and the water in the liner) and put it in the stern to add tracking ability. Or plain old practice all my paddling strokes.


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PostPosted: April 26th, 2002, 5:14 pm 
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Kim, the Guide is 14'6" according to an old catalog. That pointy bow thing is a trade off. A skinny end and you can go fast but the boat won't rise enough in the stacks, more blunt ends and you get a drier but slower boat.

I'm looking at both the Guide and the reserected Blue Hole SRV Sunburst II also 14'6". It's a dagger Caper with sharper ends. I had a Caper and it does well as a playboat, but you wouldn't want to go anywhere without current with it as it'll wear you out.

The Sunburst has 5" rocker according to the Blue Hole company owner. It's 60 lbs and has more volume than the Guide.

Al


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PostPosted: April 26th, 2002, 7:44 pm 
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Al, the Guide is definetely not a full on WW playboat. I don't know playboats that well, but from looking at the few that I have seen the bow and smaller volume is where the biggest down fall of the Guide will be in the big stuff. The rocker overall will not be close to the 5" of the Sunburst. At the time of purchase I had to get a boat that could do a bunch of things(tripping,flatwater and a little bit of WW play) for me. It is doing them all very well.


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PostPosted: April 27th, 2002, 6:16 am 
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Thanks Scoops, but I don't really want a full WW play boat. I had one of those. I want something inbetween. I haven't decided wether I want it biased more to a WW play boat or to a WW tripping canoe.

I'm not really a "player", more of a down river paddler who likes to ply a little.

Al


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PostPosted: May 2nd, 2002, 11:38 am 
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I know about skinny bows;
Remember me , the sinker at Grey Rock with the lake tripper that buried the bow in each haystack? That eventually became the Titanic?
I stand corrected on the Guide. Fourteen and a half sounds right.15 and a half is getting long for FreeStyle


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PostPosted: May 2nd, 2002, 11:47 am 
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Evergreen makes and sells the Sunburst here in Ontario. I paddled the Blue Hole version solo at Nantahala Outdoor Center in the late '80's
http://www.evergreencanoe.com/canoe_sunburst_ii.html

I think the resurrected Blue Hole is in central Virginia - Gordonsville?

It was perfect for CII - CIII paddling, but I would much prefer the MR Guide for down-river tripping. Without current, the Sunburst is a lot of work to paddle.


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PostPosted: May 6th, 2002, 9:12 am 
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Thanks Jon, That's exactly what I'm concerned about. I paddled my Dagger Caper 11 miles on flat water once and I was zapped at the end. I'm starting to lean towards the Guide.

According to Blue Hole, the Sunburst was the predecessor to the Caper.

AL


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PostPosted: May 6th, 2002, 12:47 pm 
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I spoke to Don, the man who runs Evergreen on Saturday, and he explained that not only are the Blue Hole boats they produce the same design as those sold in the US by the resurrected Blue Hole outfit in Virginia, but that Evergreen actually molds their boats in Virginia in the same plant, then ships them back to Toronto for finishing. So other than possibly gunwales and outfitting, the canoes should be the same.


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