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 Post subject: Re: Novacraft Tuffstuff
PostPosted: October 15th, 2014, 1:13 pm 
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I raised the wrap/impact questions on their YouTube site and got the quick reply that they are planning more tests and video demos. We live in hope.


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 Post subject: Re: Novacraft Tuffstuff
PostPosted: October 15th, 2014, 10:57 pm 
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Mr Wilson, would that be a new Swift boat in the pics? Northern brand canoe in the background and Swift composite gunwales were the clue.


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 Post subject: Re: Novacraft Tuffstuff
PostPosted: October 16th, 2014, 12:33 pm 
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For it to be a "replacement" in my mind the price needs to be similar. 16 Rx prospector was $2050 The Tuff Stuff version is $2749. I don't disagree that it looks promising but at the end of the day its another option not a replacement.


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 Post subject: Re: Novacraft Tuffstuff
PostPosted: October 16th, 2014, 1:25 pm 
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Reminded me of the old Clipper Canoe (kevlar duraflex) hammer test:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMnus9nZ34E

I agree with Ray that if it is to be a "Royalex replacement" and not just another composite competitor, it will need to be similar in price to Royalex.

-jmc


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 Post subject: Re: Novacraft Tuffstuff
PostPosted: October 16th, 2014, 3:34 pm 
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Price isn't always the relevant factor. If I want to replace a race boat with a more expensive design, buyers aren't going to care about a few hundred. They want that little extra edge that might mean winning.


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 Post subject: Re: Novacraft Tuffstuff
PostPosted: October 17th, 2014, 10:31 am 
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I disagree price does matter. your correct the price wont matter to a serious tripper who needs the dependability on a northern river, however if you were to look at over all royalex sales I can guarantee that they all are not being used for that. It looks like it has some great property's but its an alternative not a replacement.


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 Post subject: Re: Novacraft Tuffstuff
PostPosted: October 19th, 2014, 7:09 pm 
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Location: Lower Saranac Lake, NY
Kevlar is hydrophylic, friendly to water; absorbs the stuff and eventually ends up being strands loose in the resin matrix. Innegra in hydrophyllic, doesn't absorb moisture and seems to bond better than Kevlar. ??

Will the stuff stand a wrap, we'll all see spring 2-15.

Does it float? Yes, SpGr of .84 compared to water's 1.0, but as resin, basalt, glass and carbon sink we can assume the matrix/composite will sink in water too and additional floatation will be required.

Pricing? Innegra is promised to be less expensive than Kevlar, say $20 to Kev's $25, Carbon's $50 and FGlass Basalt $5-$10 per pound. Bi or co-mingled spun thread and bi/quad woven fabrics increase price too.

There will be lots of details in a few months.


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 Post subject: Re: Novacraft Tuffstuff
PostPosted: October 20th, 2014, 8:28 am 
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Charlie, in what part of the canoeing universe does this phenomenon of Kevlar fibers coming loose from the resin matrix, manifest itself?

Somewhere I have a little research paper where they parboiled a Kevlar and resin sample and did not find signs of delamination.

Kevlar sits against wet float bags in composite decked boats and delamination doesn't occur. Nylon is also hydrophilic, and Phoenix boats don't seem to have fibers coming loose. At least mine never has.

It's of academic interest that Kevlar and Nylon are hydrophilic, but is it of practical interest? Where, and under what conditions?

I notice that Kevlar-inside boats are not varnished or painted inside to forestall water uptake by the fibers from which resin has been scraped in use. I guess they aren't worried about UV exposure, either.

Anyway, how are we supposed to constructively worry about Kevlar wicking water, and is it important enough to affect a boat purchase or to apply a hair dryer after a day of paddling?


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 Post subject: Re: Novacraft Tuffstuff
PostPosted: October 20th, 2014, 11:35 am 
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Most recent data is verbal from a very skilled and educated Oxion tech rep, but I do not have test data. Let's take a longer look at paddlecraft laminates.

Fiberglass fabric, not chopper-gunned or roving,was the best material available for paddlecraft from 1950 through the mid 70s. Kevlar was the best we had from the mid seventies until mid 90s when carbon came into use, and continues to be hybridized with carbon to reach acceptable price points. In either case, the newer materials allowed us to paddle rather than swim home from a maximum credible accident. Will Innegra find a place in top end paddlecraft laminations? It's hard to tell right now but we'll have better information this time next year. Vectran, M-5 and other materials all with their own pluses and minuses are waiting in the wings for volume production to lower pricing where it is rational to test them for paddlecraft.

For those not frightened by ink on paper, I recommend Fundamentals of Composites Manufacturing by Strong and Carbon Fibers and their Composites by Morgan. A surprise to me is the similarity in tensile strength, modulus and elongation to breakage of Kevlar and Carbon. The concept that we need E, S or Carbon for compression and Kev for tensile reinforcement is not born out by the numbers. That there are four different Kevlars, 29, 49, 129, 149, three different carbon moduli and at least two U.H.M.Wt. Polyethylenes makes things more interesting in the Chinese sense of the word.

If it's a religious tenant that KKSS is the ultimate paddlecraft laminate; discussion is over. If the laminates primacy is proposed as fact, we can consider that there may be better materials and lamination designs already in use, including carbon where weight and stiffness is key, and better materials and armor design concepts in the offing, remembering material cost will always be a factor for any paddlecraft lamination.


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 Post subject: Re: Novacraft Tuffstuff
PostPosted: October 20th, 2014, 1:09 pm 
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I don't see yet that tensile strength, modulus, and elongation to breakage describe how Kevlar responds when foreshortened along its length. I have seen Kevlar fail on the inside of Millbrook chines in a way that glass does not. I wonder whether Kevlar doesn't act like links of a chain, weaker when pushed together along its axis.

But then, you're paid to know that stuff. I just get to say whatever comes to mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Novacraft Tuffstuff
PostPosted: October 21st, 2014, 12:41 pm 
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It gets technical or lots of details and differences as Charlie Wilson stated.

We consumers need to seek out knowledgeable forum posters, canoe makers, and sales staff in addition to our own research.

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 Post subject: Re: Novacraft Tuffstuff
PostPosted: October 21st, 2014, 10:22 pm 
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EZ looks faster sitting still than I do moving, which worries me sometimes.

Anyway, he has described Kevlar's compression failure accurately; a function of it's poor bonding with resin. Individual strands/ fibrils buckle and split away from the tow bundle, the bundles being only loosely captured in resin, and looks like links in a chain collapsing. That is why Aramides are usually placed in inner laminates where we seldom see compression failure. Quick reference; Fiberglass and other Composite Materials by Aird, 2006, ISBN 1-55788-498-6, pg 12.

Those inner, tensile, failures or saves usually involve resin failure before twist and kink are removed from the fabric and the materials tensile strength is engaged; hence the stress "grins" in Kevlar hulls. Spread tow fabrics like TexTreme eliminate twist and most kink; engaging the material's tensile strength before resin failure but cost more to manufacture, at least currently.

Swift is working with Innegra and it may prove the next great thing if combined with basalt or carbon, obviously at different price points. It looks like Innegra/ Basalt, currently priced near kevlar costs will come in ~ $2500; Innegra Carbon fabrics cost as much as carbon so will over $3K.

Hopefully material pricing will drop as volume increases. I'm still hoping for Magellan 5 to arrive in my working life at a reasonable price. Vectran, needing to be hot cut, will be problematical in production quantities. Maybe Boron, currently @ $400/#, or Si Carbide @ $2500/# will drop in price? Then there's spider silk?
We have only scratched the surface of composite construction: Onward and Upward?


Last edited by Charlie Wilson on October 22nd, 2014, 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Novacraft Tuffstuff
PostPosted: October 21st, 2014, 11:22 pm 
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Royalex prices jumped a lot in 2014, once it was known to be going out of production. But older price lists (here 2013) show just what an economical option it was.

http://www.bluemountainoutfitters.net/P ... 202013.pdf

http://www.bluemountainoutfitters.net/P ... 202013.pdf

http://www.bluemountainoutfitters.net/P ... 202013.pdf

Nova and Esquif both had 16 – 17 foot Royalex prospectors for $16-1700, Swift a Royalex Raven expedition solo for $1495.

If this Tuffstuff is $2500-3000 a hull, it has to be seen as a new composite competitor, not a Royalex replacement. For a youth program or canoe tripping camp looking at replacing its fleet, an extra $800-$1000/boat is not going to be chump change.

Maybe the Royalex replacement will be the material Royalex largely replaced – aluminum. A Grumman 18 foot lightweight, or 17 foot shoe keel model, are both listed below $1400 on the Marathon Boats website. And both have a long history of successful use on northern Canadian rivers.

-jmc


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PostPosted: November 19th, 2014, 7:34 pm 
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I wonder what it weighs,the guy grunts a bit picking it up :D...or if you can repair it yourself.Interesting anyway......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e47frGNaVfg


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PostPosted: November 19th, 2014, 9:53 pm 
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You beat us to the share! :lol:

A 16ft Prospector weighs 59lbs, so roughly 5lbs lighter than Royalex. Nova Craft has developed an all new Gel Coat for TuffStuff, so there should be a greater colour variety available for those wanting something unique.

We had a fun day at the drop. That thud when it hit the ground (hit a piece of rebar too!) was something else!

Brad

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