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PostPosted: February 2nd, 2008, 8:32 pm 
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siren1 wrote:
Sugar, refined or natural, is a key ingredient for those long haul journeys,
Dried apricots, the raisins from sultana cookies, sugary instant oatmeal
= cornerstone ingredients of the Food Barrel.

Oatmeal (anykind) and Smoked Slab Bacon
= a marriage made in Heaven.


******* wrote:
The difference is that I can control the sugar - I would normally use much less to suit my own tastes and I try to watch the sugar with Tobias. I prefer to get our energy from a variety of sources.

Siren, while the carbohydrates you mentioned are great for energy there is also a need for protein in the wilderness tripper or backpacker's diet. Some sugars only provide a short burst of energy whereas adding a protein like quinoa to breakfast or legumes to your lunch can be helpful.

It's all about variety and balance.


I disagree. The human body can go quite a period of time with little in the way of protein. Certainly for the duration of the average trip. Running out of steam by shorting yourself on high energy foods, however, is a recipe for disaster. If you run low, your body will simple turn all that protein into glucose, the gold standard of energy consumption, and then start working on your muscles to convert as well. Ask any endurance athlete what they load up on before a race. I never heard of the expression "protein loading". The bottom line is that for the short term, carbs are what fuels the fire best.

For longer, more strenuous trips, you would be better off adding fat than protein. I've read about expedition paddlers tanking up on butter so they don't lose too much weight. That's why I'm on board with Siren with the oats and bacon. Pretty damn yummy, too. I've had quinoa and I'd rather get my protein from some meat or eggs. :wink:

I think a trip is the wrong time to be obsessing about a balanced diet. Plenty of time for the body to recover any nutrients it failed to receive once you get back. It's not like most of us ever get out there long enough to create a problem. If you are in training for an endurance event, naturally you need a balanced diet, but for the running of the event itself all you have to worry about is fuel.

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PostPosted: February 2nd, 2008, 10:05 pm 
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I respectfully disagree - please keep in mind that I consulted experts in nutrition and did a great amount of research about this when writing Fork.

Granted the carb intake should be higher than the protein and fat in the diet. Fat is an easy way to up the caloric intake too and in the colder weather the fat intake will need to be increased - but if you are doing a lot of portages your muscles need the protein as well.

"A balanced backcountry diet for trips below ten thousand foot altitude should include forty percent of calories derived from carbohydrates, thirty percent from protein, and thirty percent from fat. Above ten thousand feet, seventy percent of your calorie intake should come from carbohydrates, with the remaining calories evenly divided between protein and fat sources.

Balancing protein, fat, and carbohydrates in this way provides your engine with a smooth and continuous flow of fuel, and allows for the storage of more calories than can be accomplished with higher carbohydrate diets. The human body can only store a few thousand calories from carbohydrate, in the form of glycogen maintained in the liver. On the other hand, we can easily store several tens of thousands of calories as fat. Protein in the diet of the wilderness adventurer serves to prevent the metabolic breakdown of muscle which takes place when energy from carbohydrates runs out. "

from http://wildernessmedical.com/wilderness-first-aid.htm


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PostPosted: February 2nd, 2008, 10:26 pm 
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******* wrote:
Bryan - the instant oats are steamed and flattened thinner to reduce cooking time. There is some nutrient loss in the process.

Steel cut oats are the least processed followed by rolled oats. Quick oats are next and then finally the instant oatmeal.

The other thing is that instant oatmeal has about 3 teaspoons of additional sugar added to it and it contains less fibre.


Now that I know Siren's got my back, I'll continue as devil's advocate regarding nutritive value of oatmeal.

First of all, I think I need to clarify/correct myself: when I referred to "instant oats" I meant "minute oats" (I have a package of Robin Hood Minute Oats - "cooks in 1 minute"). So in my earlier post about how we make our oatmeal for trips - substitute the word "instant" with either "minute" or "quick" oats. And I agree, it's nice to be able to know exactly what's going into it rather than what goes into the packets of instant oatmeal. Again, I don't have major problems with the instant oatmeal, it's a mainstay in our house but when the kids aren't looking I dilute the package with minute oats.

OK, I didn't know they were steamed in the process so yes, some nutrition may be lost in the process (enzymes and proteins break down, some more than others, but the amino acids & peptides they produce are still good for you, maybe just not quite as good). However, if you cook "minute oats" for a minute or so, and steel cut oats for 30 minutes, is there still any difference in nutritive value? If anything, I'd put my money on the oats that were rolled thinner and so took less heat to make them ready to eat as being the higher nutrition breakfast.

I like quinoa and occasionally cook with it, though I never knew it was supposed to be rinsed. I am the type of cook that likes to throw a lot of things together in one pot (or bread pan, or bottle, etc.) so probably I could find room for it at breakfast too, right next to the bacon of course.

Cheers,
Bryan

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PostPosted: February 2nd, 2008, 10:51 pm 
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Hi Bryan,

Yes there is a difference between minute and instant oats. Thanks for clarifying that.

Steel cut oats are basically whole grain groats that have been cut. Oatmeal, large flake oats or rolled oats have often had the oat bran removed. This is why steel cut oats need to be cooked longer and have a chewier texture.


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PostPosted: February 2nd, 2008, 10:59 pm 
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******* wrote:
Steel cut oats are basically whole grain groats/oats that have been cut. Oatmeal, large flake oats or rolled oats have often had the oat bran removed. This is why steel cut oats need to be cooked longer and have a chewier texture.

Now that is a real & discernible difference. Thanks for setting me straight. Cheers,
Bryan

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PostPosted: February 2nd, 2008, 11:07 pm 
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sorry it took me a while to get there.. I was taking the scenic route :wink:

totally different way of looking at oats.... if you can find the whole grain groats before they are cut... you can use them for sprouting

speaking of sprouting - growing sprouts on longer trips is a great way to get some added nutrition and that fresh crunch - it takes 3 to 4 days to grow sprouts in a water bottle or ziplock but that is a whole other topic for debate


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PostPosted: February 3rd, 2008, 12:18 am 
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My canoe partner and I use whole grain oats that takes 1/2 an hour to cook. We add raisins and Brown sugar. This or corn meal cooked is our normal breakfast.
We have found that this is the best breakfast for us except for the first or second day and we have eggs & bacon along with bannock. Sometimes we eat corn meal cooked like cream of wheat and add raisins and brown sugar.

Bill

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PostPosted: February 3rd, 2008, 8:13 am 
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cornmeal - as in polenta or grits? I want to assume grits because of where you originally hail from Bill... so what is the best way to cook them.


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PostPosted: February 3rd, 2008, 11:39 am 
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******* wrote:
Hi Bryan,

Yes there is a difference between minute and instant oats. Thanks for clarifying that.

Steel cut oats are basically whole grain groats that have been cut. Oatmeal, large flake oats or rolled oats have often had the oat bran removed. This is why steel cut oats need to be cooked longer and have a chewier texture.


Dr, Gabe Mirkin, a noted health and fitness author, feels otherwise:

Quote:
To the individual who sought information on the difference between steel and rolled oats, I recalled having saved to my personal filing cabinet the following e-mail which I received from Dr. Mirkin's office approximately a year ago regarding my query as to the differences between steel cut oats and
rolled oats:

All types of oatmeal have all of the nutrients intact (nothing is removed), but if you're diabetic or trying to lose weight, the larger the pieces, the better. Whole oat groats (the seeds themselves) are available in some health food and specialty stores, and cook up the same way as oatmeal but take a longer time to cook. Next best are the Irish or Scottish-type oatmeal cereals (often sold in metal cans) called steel-cut oats; the seeds have just been broken up. Next best are rolled whole oats (the long-cooking Quaker Oats type that come in round cardboard boxes). The quick-cooking oats and instant oatmeal are least desirable -- the quicker it cooks, the quicker it is broken down in your intestines, causing higher rise in blood sugar.


Many folks aren't aware of an important metabolic analytical tool called the "glycemic index". This index compares the rates that various foods are converted and enter into the bloodstream as glucose. All of these foods are assigned a number based on that of pure glucose, which has been assigned the number "100" in most indices. There are a number of metabolic pathways involved in the assimilation and conversion of complex carbohydrates and basically, the more enzymatic reactions, the tighter the carbohydrates are bound to soluble fiber and the less they are mechanically processed, the slower they appear as glucose in the bloodstream.


Quote:
he glycemic index (GI) is a ranking of carbohydrates on a scale from 0 to 100 according to the extent to which they raise blood sugar levels after eating. Foods with a high GI are those which are rapidly digested and absorbed and result in marked fluctuations in blood sugar levels. Low-GI foods, by virtue of their slow digestion and absorption, produce gradual rises in blood sugar and insulin levels, and have proven benefits for health. Low GI diets have been shown to improve both glucose and lipid levels in people with diabetes (type 1 and type 2). They have benefits for weight control because they help control appetite and delay hunger. Low GI diets also reduce insulin levels and insulin resistance.

Recent studies from Harvard School of Public Health indicate that the risks of diseases such as type 2 diabetes and coronary heart disease are strongly related to the GI of the overall diet. In 1999, the World Health Organisation (WHO) and Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) recommended that people in industrialised countries base their diets on low-GI foods in order to prevent the most common diseases of affluence, such as coronary heart disease, diabetes and obesity.


A very comprehensive list is found at the site below:

http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm

You will have to scroll down a ways to get to the index. There you will find some interesting facts, like that a baked Russet potato appears as glucose in the bloodstream faster than does pure glucose itself and almost three times faster than the common "killer", white table sugar.

I haven't written a cookbook, but I have been researching nutrition my entire adult life. I've also taken enough biochemistry to be able to wade through some of the primary literature on the subject. The fact that we disagree has nothing to do with either of our respective degrees of "expertise" but rather, is a reflection of the complexity of the subject and the fact that the jury is still out on huge areas of the field.

As far as oatmeal goes, yes, you are correct about the instant oats having less soluble fiber (I think the stuff is a by product of oat bran production) than steel cut oats as per the Quaker Oats website, but you will also notice that ordinary rolled oats have the same as steel cut, 2 g/serving. And this may be why some folks get a hankering for the instant stuff while on the trail. They need that burst of energy.

http://www.quakeroatmeal.com/qo_heartHe ... /index.cfm

I'm a huge advocate of learning to listen to the subtle cues your body gives at various times and not at all on the "good numbers = good nutrition" bandwagon.

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PostPosted: February 3rd, 2008, 12:25 pm 
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Battenkiller wrote:
Dr, Gabe Mirkin, a noted health and fitness author, feels otherwise: . . . .talktalktalk, explain- explain, research, primary sources, >quip< AD + testimonial)


YOU DA MANNNN!

Here's a little 'prize'
8)
Oat Meal Cookies

(these are really good, the recipe 'floated around the FaxMachine world'
yesteryear and was called the 250$ Nieman Markus Cookie recipe)


1 cup Butter
1 cup White Sugar
1 cup Brown sugar
2 eggs
1 tsp. vanilla
2 1/2 cups oatmeal- pulverized into a mealey tex in the blender
2 cups all purpose flour (unbleached)
1/2 tsp salt
1 tsp baking powder
1 tsp soda
1 1/2 cup nuts (I like peh-khans)
1/2 12 oz. bag Chippits, (I use the mini dark choc)
1/2 8 oz bar unsweeted choc coursely grated (I skip this)

butter with sugar
eggs with vanilla
add dry to creamed (having sifted all before, or whisk to whoosh in the soda/powder)
add nuts and choc bits
balls 2 " apart
parchment lined sheets
375 degrees 6 mins or so, keep an eye on them- for a nice colour

These are 'dry' tasting cookies
I don't care for sugary chewy ones
eating these actually feels healthy
and they don't fall apart on a trip.

your welcome.
:D

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Last edited by siren1 on February 3rd, 2008, 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: February 3rd, 2008, 1:04 pm 
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WC,
Cooking corn meal is like cooking cream of wheat. You can make it as runny as you like or as thick as you like.I like to cook the corn meal and then place it to cool. On a trip I cook it the night before. At home after it is cooked I put it in a small bread loaf pan and allow it to cool there in the fridge. In the morning I take it out of the pan and slice it, fry it in butter and put syrup on it and eat.

Bill

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www.ottertooth.com
SAVE Temagami Old Growth Forests donate to Earthroots www.earthroots.org/
www.friendsoftemagami.org
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PostPosted: February 3rd, 2008, 1:19 pm 
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That sounds pretty tasty and easy enough to cook. And I can always use another idea for breakfast.

Thanks Bill.

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PostPosted: February 3rd, 2008, 2:57 pm 
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Location: Missouri, U.S.A
Quote:
As far as oatmeal goes, yes, you are correct about the instant oats having less soluble fiber (I think the stuff is a by product of oat bran production) than steel cut oats as per the Quaker Oats website, but you will also notice that ordinary rolled oats have the same as steel cut, 2 g/serving. And this may be why some folks get a hankering for the instant stuff while on the trail. They need that burst of energy.


I looked at the Quaker website. The serving size for the instant oatmeal is 28 g vs. 40 g for the cut, old fashioned, and quick. That could account for some of the disparity in soluble fiber.

About 15 years ago I was getting interested in eating whole grains, and at the time was eating store-brand quick oats for breakfast. I called the number on the cannister, and asked if their oats were whole grained. The person said "no", the bran had been removed. I switched to Quaker quick oats, which is supposed to be whole grained. So I would say not all quick oats are created equal.


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PostPosted: February 3rd, 2008, 3:17 pm 
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siren1 wrote:

These are 'dry' tasting cookies
I don't care for sugary chewy ones
eating these actually feels healthy
and they don't fall apart on a trip.

your welcome.
:D


Washed down with hot coffee, call them "No Dishes Breakfast" :wink:

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PostPosted: February 3rd, 2008, 6:50 pm 
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Battenkiller wrote:
And this may be why some folks get a hankering for the instant stuff while on the trail. They need that burst of energy.


I'm not discounting that but you also need some protein and not animal forms are much better - especially when you are on long and strenuous trips... that's why I said there has to be a decent amount of protein in the diet. Foods like lentils for example. This is why I stressed a combination of foods. Oatmeal is good for that quick burst but it has been proven that we need more than that quick fix. Refer to the link I posted earlier.

For example... from http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... ce&dbid=52

about lentils... "their high fiber content prevents blood sugar levels from rising rapidly after a meal. But this is far from all lentils have to offer. Lentils also provide good to excellent amounts of six important minerals, two B-vitamins, and protein."

and

"In addition to providing slow burning complex carbohydrates, lentils can increase your energy by replenishing your iron stores."

the slow release is beneficial especially when portaging and hiking... so let's say one has oatmeal for breakfast - adding some lentils at lunch and then a snack of something like an oatmeal based bar will give you the balance needed - and you won't hit that wall where you lack energy

and from
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... e&dbid=142

about quinoa... "A recently rediscovered ancient "grain" native to South America, quinoa was once called "the gold of the Incas," who recognized its value in increasing the stamina of their warriors. Not only is quinoa high in protein, but the protein it supplies is complete protein, meaning that it includes all nine essential amino acids. Not only is quinoa's amino acid profile well balanced, making it a good choice for vegans concerned about adequate protein intake, but quinoa is especially well-endowed with the amino acid lysine, which is essential for tissue growth and repair. In addition to protein, quinoa features a host of other health-building nutrients. Because quinoa is a very good source of manganese as well as a good source of magnesium, iron, copper and phosphorous, this "grain" may be especially valuable for persons with migraine headaches, diabetes and atherosclerosis."

and

"Quinoa is also a good source of riboflavin, which is necessary for proper energy production within cells. Riboflavin (also called vitamin B2) has been shown to help reduce the frequency of attacks in migraine sufferers, most likely by improving the energy metabolism within their brain and muscle cells."

so like I said before, foods like quinoa are very beneficial. I've found more evidence supporting foods like quinoa and lentils than I have found disputing it.


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