View topic - Looking for the right boat for my criteria

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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 3:08 pm 
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Ya know, the pieces just aren't fitting together for me.

You have ruled out fibreglass ... but not given a reason.
You haven't even mentioned Kevlar ... but you have explicitly mentioned carbon fibre.
You repeatedly say as light as possible ... but then say you want a Royalex style material.
You want a symmetric hull and you don't want to J-stroke all day ... but the best tracking boats tend to be asymmetrical.

So do you want as light as possible this side of carbon fibre? The go with a Kevlar layup.
Want it fairly inexpensive but still reasonable light? Then reconsider a Fibreglass layup.
Want something that tracks really straight? Look for something long, narrow at the waterline, and with little rocker. (details that are noted on any of the good canoe brand sites)

Definitely don't look at a Prospector of any length or in any layup as even the worst Prospector hull is still designed to turn easily. A real Prospector will pivot on a dime.

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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 3:09 pm 
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Prospector16 wrote:
I'd look at a Prospector 16 design with a keel for better tracking, and as per recped if you are doing flatwater not sure why you want Royalex. Look at Blue Steel or Tuff Stuff or one of the other basalt innegra layups.

The only problem with a keel is that most people here will mock you for it but it does work :-)


Yes keels work, no a rub strip is not a keel. ;-)

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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 3:17 pm 
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Hey!
Have I found a deal for you! http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/for ... rospectors

Not one but two Prospectors, and not knock offs but the Real Deal!
Ok no keel, and not Royalex, but...

:D
Bruce


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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 3:17 pm 
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Canuck Energy wrote:
Ok I said "royalex style material" by this I simply mean plastic, durable, and fairly light, for a middling price. It doesn't actually have to be royalex(Tformex) but just similar performance.


Problem is that Royalex is not that light even Royalite is not. I have 2 of them so I know. And it is not that durable against the most common kind of damage - abrasions. In fact it is probably the least durable material against those. It is durable against massive thumps up against a huge rock.

Sounds like you need to start by reading my Canoe 101 document

http://www.prospector16.com/p/canoe-101.html

If you are doing flatwater you don't need protection against massive thumps you need protection against abrasion and maybe dropping the canoe by mistake. Or hitting a dead head or rock just below the surface.


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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 4:51 pm 
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Peter K. wrote:
No wood, aluminium or fibreglass really limits the options. Down to two I think -- Innegra which is basalt fibre and is marketed as Tuffstuff among others, and polyethylene. Silverbirch makes a tandem boat in poly which retails for about $1200 in the US, which would be about $1800 in Canadad. PE is very durable, but also heavy. The lightest version of the Silverbirch boat is 65 lbs.

Regarding tracking, the keel/no keel thing is, to me, a red herring. What you are really looking for is little or no rocker. With low rocker, the bow digs in and the boat goes straight -- but is also hard to turn. Boats with keels generally don't have much rocker.

I don't think you should eliminate glass boats. They will last for 20-30 years and are easily repairable.



Well there's Tformex too.

I know about the relationship of rocket to tracking, really it's the stability factor I need the most help with. Like an esquif presage will hit many factors and it's a front runner I'm comparing to. But I've been told it isn't too stable. Apparently I can rent one so I'll be trying it at some point.

Clipper is another brand popular here but they always have the thwart behind the front seat.


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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 5:10 pm 
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Tformex and Royalex are essentially the same thing except you can't get new Royalex

As for stability you'd better test it yourself or speak with someone who paddles one.

Thwart behind the front seat won't matter if they also have a kneeling thwart at the back for solo.


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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 5:52 pm 
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Pook wrote:
Hey!
Have I found a deal for you! http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/for ... rospectors

Not one but two Prospectors, and not knock offs but the Real Deal!
Ok no keel, and not Royalex, but...

:D
Bruce


What? That's nowhere near me and why would I want two?


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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 6:12 pm 
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Splake wrote:
Ya know, the pieces just aren't fitting together for me.

You have ruled out fibreglass ... but not given a reason.
You haven't even mentioned Kevlar ... but you have explicitly mentioned carbon fibre.
You repeatedly say as light as possible ... but then say you want a Royalex style material.
You want a symmetric hull and you don't want to J-stroke all day ... but the best tracking boats tend to be asymmetrical.

So do you want as light as possible this side of carbon fibre? The go with a Kevlar layup.
Want it fairly inexpensive but still reasonable light? Then reconsider a Fibreglass layup.
Want something that tracks really straight? Look for something long, narrow at the waterline, and with little rocker. (details that are noted on any of the good canoe brand sites)

Definitely don't look at a Prospector of any length or in any layup as even the worst Prospector hull is still designed to turn easily. A real Prospector will pivot on a dime.


So Kevlar or spelled properly Kevlar® is a specific form of carbon fiber trademarked by the DuPont corporation. While it does have unique properties my objection to BOTH. Kevlar and carbon fibre is purely cost.

I'm aware that prospectors pivot on a dime.

There are no good sites, they all suck. They never break down how their different models are different from each other.

I very clearly described why I need a symetric hull,.

Seriously I'm not here to trick anyone, I have preconceptions just line anyone else and I have have needs that don't reflect the average public. The average public is 6" shorter than I am and like 100 lbs lighter too. They also have no clue what they want and just but the prospector hanging from the ceiling at MEC because it "does everything".

If you want to talk me into fibreglass go for it. My conception is it ages ugly, it doesn't favor inpacts, it seems to need more thwarts, it needs a coating which is what ages badly, and for all that it isn't light.


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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 7:01 pm 
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Souris River Quetico 17 sounds like a good match for you. I would imagine they are as popular as Clipper around your area. I wouldn't be looking at Prospectors. 'Prospector 16' is a generic almost meaningless marketing term. Other than being symmetrical it doesn't sound like what you are looking for. It won't go straight and you will get blown all over the lake.


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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 7:03 pm 
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Quote:
So Kevlar or spelled properly Kevlar® is a specific form of carbon fiber trademarked by the DuPont corporation.


There is no "carbon" in Kevlar.

Your requirements as stated are simply not possible in a single boat, if you only want one canoe you will have to compromise.

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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 7:10 pm 
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MartinG wrote:
Souris River Quetico 17 sounds like a good match for you. I would imagine they are as popular as Clipper around your area. I wouldn't be looking at Prospectors. 'Prospector 16' is a generic almost meaningless marketing term. Other than being symmetrical it doesn't sound like what you are looking for. It won't go straight and you will get blown all over the lake.


$2950 for "clear" Kevlar I guess that technically fits in my price range. 42 lbs ain't bad though might be worth it. $500 more for color.


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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 8:40 pm 
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recped wrote:

There is no "carbon" in Kevlar.

Your requirements as stated are simply not possible in a single boat, if you only want one canoe you will have to compromise.


both Kevlar and Carbon fiber are a textile and resin construction process, the same procedure. The Kevlar textile like all synthetic textiles is carbon based. Kevlar is a proprietary product. While I'm not an expert on the industry terms the canoe makers use, I know my material science pretty well.

I'm not sure why you think this is impossible. Impossible would be asking for great turning and great tracking, I haven't ask for this. I'm simply asking for the most stable hull design that also tracks well, not impossible as far as I can ascertain. I'm asking for that hull to be symmetric, is it impossible now? I don't want a thwart behind the front seat, I know this is possible. And lastly I'm asking for certain materials which don't affect the other requirements.

So at what point is this impossible?


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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 9:42 pm 
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Like others, I don't really get the objection to fiberglass for your purposes. I don't see how they don't age well relative to others, and Royalex/plastic canoe are heavy too.

So, here's a local fiberglass canoe that might do:
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-water-sport/por ... nFlag=true

I think Clipper probably has a thwart behind the bow seat, but you could take it out. It's called a Prospector, but I think it's got less arch than most. In my opinion, not bad for the needs you've described.

I may also know of a Royalex 17' Wenonah Sundowner for sale - straight-tracking, but not high on the stability range, no idea whether it's symmetrical, but it has no thwart behind the bow seat. Perhaps more of a racer than a tripper, but something to research I guess.

P.

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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 9:46 pm 
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Or watch here, I know some folks who've picked up canoes at a fall sale:

http://winnipegcanoerentals.com/used-rental-canoes/

P.

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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 10:13 pm 
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yarnellboat wrote:
Like others, I don't really get the objection to fiberglass for your purposes. I don't see how they don't age well relative to others, and Royalex/plastic canoe are heavy too.

So, here's a local fiberglass canoe that might do:
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-water-sport/por ... nFlag=true

I think Clipper probably has a thwart behind the bow seat, but you could take it out. It's called a Prospector, but I think it's got less arch than most. In my opinion, not bad for the needs you've described.

I may also know of a Royalex 17' Wenonah Sundowner for sale - straight-tracking, but not high on the stability range, no idea whether it's symmetrical, but it has no thwart behind the bow seat. Perhaps more of a racer than a tripper, but something to research I guess.

P.


i mean Royalex is comparable in wight to fiberglass, and for the third time I'm not asking for royalex, just something of similar durability. Novacraft tuffstuff would be fine for example.

the other issue with clipper is the tractor seats, not really meant to sit backwards in. I realize removing thwarts and changing seats are all options but why the headache if other options are available?


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