View topic - Looking for the right boat for my criteria

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PostPosted: August 27th, 2019, 10:18 pm 
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Ok you guys are really starting to annoy me with the material obsession. Here is my original post.

Canuck Energy wrote:

I want:

Relativity good tracking, basically I don't want to have to J-stroke all day long. I'd rather be able to get a good rythmn and speed.

Symetric Hull, being big is a trial and opportunity. If I solo and sit in the rear seat the bow lifts and I lose control. However my long armspan means I can sit backwards in the front seat giving me more stability and better weight distribution. However this means there cannot be a thwart immediately behind the front seat.

Lastly I want stability. Of the three this matters the least but any gains here will generally make my paddles know enjoyable. Stability is one of the key reasons I hate kayaks.



SEE!!! NOTHING ABOUT MATERIAL IN THE "I WANT" PORTION!!!!!!!

You lot keep harassing me about material and too many aren't answering the actual question I'm asking.


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 12:52 am 
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Without having paddled this "Prospector" to know how flat in the water it is for tracking, I think the Clipper basically meets your criteria. Not all Clippers have the bucket seats, so you'd have the ask the seller. Same with the thwart, maybe, maybe not, only the seller knows for sure, no point complaining on here about these maybes, check it out or don't.

The focus on materials is because people are trying to help. In your first posts you said you wanted a Royalex-like material and didn't want fiberglass. For your flatwater trips this doesn't make a load of sense because there's no big advantage and you eliminate a huge number of potential canoes. I think the hull designs you're interested in tend to be offered in fiberglass. Whatever, it's your boat, I'm sure it's not impossible to get what you want, just unnecessarily hard, but good luck finding yourself a canoe.

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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 4:54 am 
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yarnellboat wrote:
Without having paddled this "Prospector" to know how flat in the water it is for tracking, I think the Clipper basically meets your criteria. Not all Clippers have the bucket seats, so you'd have the ask the seller. Same with the thwart, maybe, maybe not, only the seller knows for sure, no point complaining on here about these maybes, check it out or don't.

P.


What? Who said anything want a prospector? And Clipper is a brand with all types of designs and shapes and sizes including prospectors. I'm trying to avoid prospectors.

This is not helpful at all, did you even read my original post?


Last edited by Canuck Energy on August 28th, 2019, 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 7:47 am 
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Location: SW Quebec
As MartinG mentioned, try a SR Quetico. The advantage to that boat is that it is very popular with outfitters and many turn their inventory frequently - sometimes yearly. I recently paddled a 16' and noted that when properly trimmed it handled very easily. I had my 150lb nephew in the bow, fishing, while I paddled us around the lake in light-but-gusty conditions. Consequently, in tight maneuvers, it was like trying to steer a telephone pole. I've been looking for something, too. H2O's Innegra Basalt in the Epoxy Pro series is a material in which I'd be interested, though I haven't seen many rental fleets offering this layup in anything but the prospector (which I tried and found to be quite squirrely - because I probably suck).


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 8:38 am 
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I will go back to your original post and examine each of your listed criteria

Canuck Energy wrote:
So long story short I'm tall and top heavy and not particularly gifted in the balance department. I also expect to spend most of my time on flat water in mostly open lakes and calm rivers.


Size and balance wise, me too. Although I can get comfortable in narrower canoes I prefer a hull with at least a 32” waterline. My simple tests for primary stability – can I turn my head and torso to look 180 degrees behind me without needing to lay on a brace? Can I retrieve a day bag from behind the seat, swing it out over the gunwale and set it in front of me without weeblewobbling disconcertingly?

To that end I prefer canoes with a shallow arch or vee bottom. More rounded or elliptical bottoms present more primary stability challenges for me.

Canuck Energy wrote:
Relativity good tracking


So, “moderate” rocker. I’d like some rocker, maybe 2” +/-


Canuck Energy wrote:
Symetric Hull, being big is a trial and opportunity. If I solo and sit in the rear seat the bow lifts and I lose control. However my long armspan means I can sit backwards in the front seat giving me more stability and better weight distribution. However this means there cannot be a thwart immediately behind the front seat.


Symmetry can mean a lot of things. Symmetrical hull shape, not swede form or fish form and symmetrical rocker, not a “skegged” stern, would be important in your bow backwards inent. Symmetrical depth less so; if the bow is 1” deeper than the stern that is largely unnoticabble.

Canuck Energy wrote:
Lastly I want stability. Of the three this matters the least but any gains here will generally make my paddles know enjoyable.


See waterline width and bottom shape again.

Canuck Energy wrote:
My budget is $2-3k CAD, lower is always better, I like $2400 as a number.


I would not blow my canoe budget on a “first” canoe, and it often just the “first” canoe, one that serves to illustrate the design and performance that best suits your style and type of paddling, providing an education in what you like and dislike for your 2nd canoe. 3rd, 4th . . . . .

Canuck Energy wrote:
Ideally I want a royalex style material, durability and weight, while not too pricy.


Then look for a reasonably priced used Royalex canoe. There is nothing wrong with Royalex as a material, and a lot of things right. I would stay away from poly boats, which tend to be heavier and some more prone to oil canning.

recped wrote:
Find yourself a beat up (or not so beat up) Mad River Royalex Explorer (the older the better....90's?), I paddled it as a solo for a few years, it's a very stable boat as well. Works fine as a tandem with a modest load. You might pick one up for $500+.


I’m with recped on the used Royalex Explorer suggestion. Great all-around canoe.
16’ long
33” waterline, 35” gunwales
15” deep center, 22” bow and stern
72-ish lbs

We have one, bought used 20 years ago, hugely underpriced at $200. It needed a new seat and I quickly “soloized” it with a wide contour seat set well back of center and replaced the bow and stern seats with a couple of thwarts.

Or a Royalex Old Town Penobscot.
16’ 2” long
33” waterline, 34” gunwales
13 ¾” center, 21” bow and stern
58-ish lbs

The Penosbcot has a thwart in the way bow backwards, but thwarts are easy to move and I single seat “soloized” that one as well.

There are a lot of tandem canoe designs in that basic size and shape. I have long wanted to find a used Bell Morningstar to soloize. It is asymmetrically rockered with a skegged stern (2 ½” bow, 1 ½” stern), but the rest of the dimensions are spot on for my preferences.
15’ 6” long
32” waterline, 32” gunwales
14” center, 21” bow, 19” stern
58 lbs in Royalex (and three composite lay ups from UL 40 lbs to beefier 53 lbs)

I do not know much about the market availability of used canoes in Canada. Maybe an Esquif Avalon
16’ 2” long
34” max width (waterline less)
15” deep center
2” symmetrical rocker, shallow vee bottom
59 lbs



Nova Craft made some RX canoes that likewise fit that bill. The Cronje was actually 16’ 8” in Royalex and the bow seat is 6 feet back of stem, so it paddles well bow backwards without any alteration.

Some fool has a pristine, fully outfitted RX Cronje, with spray covers and sail, for sale at $1200 USD.

https://myccr.com/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=47530


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 9:34 am 
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scratchypants wrote:
As MartinG mentioned, try a SR Quetico. The advantage to that boat is that it is very popular with outfitters and many turn their inventory frequently - sometimes yearly. I recently paddled a 16' and noted that when properly trimmed it handled very easily. I had my 150lb nephew in the bow, fishing, while I paddled us around the lake in light-but-gusty conditions. Consequently, in tight maneuvers, it was like trying to steer a telephone pole. I've been looking for something, too. H2O's Innegra Basalt in the Epoxy Pro series is a material in which I'd be interested, though I haven't seen many rental fleets offering this layup in anything but the prospector (which I tried and found to be quite squirrely - because I probably suck).


Yes it looks like good advice(the quentico), I found a place that rents them and they sell of their stuff used too fire like $2300-2400. I'll be renting one to try out soon.


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 10:12 am 
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Quote:
What? Who said anything want a prospector? And Clipper is a brand with all types of designs and shapes and sizes including prospectors. I'm trying to avoid prospectors.

This is not helpful at all, did you even read my original post?


Did you even read the responses?... I had posted a Kijiji ad for you of what I think was 17' Clipper Prospector (the ad appears to be gone now, so I assume it sold).

As discussed (since yes, I have read the posts), the "Prospector" name is used for a big range of boats, and I don't think that Clipper's "Prospector" has the rocker that most traditional Prospectors have, so I think it would've tracked well, and I think it likely had a flat seat with no thwart.

The Royalex Wenonah Sundowner is no longer available either.

If directing you to an ad for a used local boat like that Clipper was unhelpful, I don't know how to help.

P.

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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 10:20 am 
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Quetico will be tough to solo. I have one, its a big canoe. From your OP, I'm interpreting that you are looking for a tandem canoe that you can use as a solo, but not necessarily as a tandem. Don't get annoyed if I have that wrong, lol. You are on a canoe site, where people spend hours discussing canoes. We do it for fun.

There is never a perfect answer, but in my opinion, the Nova Craft Chestnut Pal is your solution. It can be had in a variety of layups, tuff stuff probably being the one to best suit you. Only downside is that if you are a very large guy and you want to stick another person in the canoe with you, it will not be the best. The Pal has moderate rocker and tracks very well, and paddles very nicely heeled over. Not the best tandem canoe, two flyweights would be ok in it, but a very good solo for a big guy. I have soloed a Pal on several trips.

You could also look at dedicated solos. I know that's not in your original request, but there are some out there for big fellas. I built a J. Winters Raven, in my opinion, in a composite layup, one of the best solo hulls out there for big people.


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 12:20 pm 
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yarnellboat wrote:
Quote:
What? Who said anything want a prospector? And Clipper is a brand with all types of designs and shapes and sizes including prospectors. I'm trying to avoid prospectors.

This is not helpful at all, did you even read my original post?


Did you even read the responses?... I had posted a Kijiji ad for you of what I think was 17' Clipper Prospector (the ad appears to be gone now, so I assume it sold).

As discussed (since yes, I have read the posts), the "Prospector" name is used for a big range of boats, and I don't think that Clipper's "Prospector" has the rocker that most traditional Prospectors have, so I think it would've tracked well, and I think it likely had a flat seat with no thwart.

The Royalex Wenonah Sundowner is no longer available either.

If directing you to an ad for a used local boat like that Clipper was unhelpful, I don't know how to help.

P.


I can't keep up with who said what, you've go to give me some context next time. Sorry for the confusion.


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 12:24 pm 
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RHaslam wrote:
Quetico will be tough to solo. I have one, its a big canoe. From your OP, I'm interpreting that you are looking for a tandem canoe that you can use as a solo, but not necessarily as a tandem. Don't get annoyed if I have that wrong, lol. You are on a canoe site, where people spend hours discussing canoes. We do it for fun.

There is never a perfect answer, but in my opinion, the Nova Craft Chestnut Pal is your solution. It can be had in a variety of layups, tuff stuff probably being the one to best suit you. Only downside is that if you are a very large guy and you want to stick another person in the canoe with you, it will not be the best. The Pal has moderate rocker and tracks very well, and paddles very nicely heeled over. Not the best tandem canoe, two flyweights would be ok in it, but a very good solo for a big guy. I have soloed a Pal on several trips.

You could also look at dedicated solos. I know that's not in your original request, but there are some out there for big fellas. I built a J. Winters Raven, in my opinion, in a composite layup, one of the best solo hulls out there for big people.


Essentially I'm expecting 60/40 tandem/solo use. Hopefully more tandem less solo but there it is. I'm very physically strong so a bit of brute force above the average is available when I am solo. What about that boat makes you say it is difficult solo?


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 12:52 pm 
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It's a great tandem boat, certainly meets your stability standards. The 17 footer is actually 17 and change. It's a big tripping canoe, but fairly light. It's profile is lower than a traditional canoe, but it's still a lot of boat to solo if the wind comes up. I believe they put an aluminium thwart directly behind the bow seat too. If you removed it, I think you would probably be ok if the seats are bolted into the side of the canoe and not hung from the gunwales. You could simply use wing nuts or something, remove the thwart when you are solo, put it back on when you are tandem. I have done stuff like that before. Give it a try solo, you will like it tandem, I can almost guarantee that.

With 60% tandem, the Pal is out for you.


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 1:21 pm 
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RHaslam wrote:
... It can be had in a variety of layups, tuff stuff probably being the one to best suit you. ...


Nah, TuffStuff is still a cloth/resin layup so that makes it identical to carbon fibre based on the definition that Canuck Energy applied to claim that Kevlar is identical to carbon fibre. :doh: (Side note, yes the Kevlar molecule contains carbon, no it does not have the same molecular structure as carbon fibre)

Honestly, this thread feels like a troll, but it's still the middle of canoe season and we don't usually see the trolls come out until January.

Nonetheless, if you want a tandem boat that is big enough to be a tandem tripping boat but still be manageable solo then take a look at the John Winters Swift designs. They are asymmetrical hulls that typically transition from a shallow arch hull in the front section to a shallow V in the stern section. That makes for really good tracking and handling. For soloing you can add a kneeling thwart, or even add brackets for a third seat.

My Temagami was my go to boat when tripping 1-on-1 with the kids when they were as young as 9 because of the handling characteristics. I've also soloed that boat in the French River area although it took work. I wouldn't recommend going as large as the Temagami or the Quetico based on the expectation you would be tripping solo 40% of the time. Rather I'm offering this info as proof that a John Winters design could be a good fit for you.

Note that my Temagami has an optional 3rd seat right behind the sliding bow seat. It takes about 5 minutes to put it in or remove it - 4 screws and lock nuts. The brackets have never been a hindrance when using the canoe without the 3rd seat. Those same brackets could readily have been mounted between the yoke and the stern thwart.

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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 1:41 pm 
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Yes was also thinking this feels a bit like a troll.


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 3:03 pm 
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The Souris River Quetico 16 specifications are very close to some of the canoes I recommended as Royalex possibilities, 16’ 2” long, 34” gunwale width, 20”/14”/20” depth, 2” symmetrical rocker.

https://www.sourisriver.com/quetico-16

The aluminum thwart behind the bow seat might need to be moved for a long legged paddler, but otherwise it’s right in the same ballpark dimensionally.


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PostPosted: August 28th, 2019, 3:06 pm 
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Mike McCrea wrote:
The Souris River Quetico 16 specifications are very close to some of the canoes I recommended as Royalex possibilities, 16’ 2” long, 34” gunwale width, 20”/14”/20” depth, 2” symmetrical rocker.

https://www.sourisriver.com/quetico-16

The aluminum thwart behind the bow seat might need to be moved for a long legged paddler, but otherwise it’s right in the same ballpark dimensionally.


There is no thwart behind the bow seat on the Q16 - only between the yoke and stern seat.


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